1 00:00:04,999 --> 00:00:04,249 and it hits me oh my gosh this is that 2 00:00:06,110 --> 00:00:05,009 triangle 3 00:00:07,220 --> 00:00:06,120 you know there's explanation for 4 00:00:09,589 --> 00:00:07,230 everything that occurred in the 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:09,599 Rendlesham forest incident it involved 6 00:00:13,370 --> 00:00:10,650 aliens at all 7 00:00:16,310 --> 00:00:13,380 it was completely silent it comes right 8 00:00:18,529 --> 00:00:16,320 over our head it's so classic 9 00:00:20,420 --> 00:00:18,539 flying-saucer really standing in the 10 00:00:21,830 --> 00:00:20,430 clearing he turned over to my father and 11 00:00:27,679 --> 00:00:21,840 held his hand and he looked in his eyes 12 00:00:30,259 --> 00:00:27,689 and said we're not alone welcome to 13 00:00:32,690 --> 00:00:30,269 podcast UFO for our live show 14 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:32,700 we're live every Wednesday at 8 p.m. 15 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:34,890 Eastern Standard Time on the dark matter 16 00:00:41,090 --> 00:00:37,410 radio network please remember to visit 17 00:00:44,270 --> 00:00:41,100 the website podcast UFO comm for past 18 00:00:46,279 --> 00:00:44,280 episodes blogs and forums during the 19 00:00:48,770 --> 00:00:46,289 show feel free to participate live in 20 00:00:50,900 --> 00:00:48,780 our chat room and don't forget to Like 21 00:00:53,810 --> 00:00:50,910 us on our very active Facebook page 22 00:00:56,930 --> 00:00:53,820 hello and welcome to the show I'm Martin 23 00:01:00,580 --> 00:00:56,940 will assure host and Alejandro is on his 24 00:01:03,950 --> 00:01:00,590 way to I want to say Wyoming is it to 25 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:03,960 Devil's Tower hidden he's gonna go to a 26 00:01:08,570 --> 00:01:05,610 conference out there and talk about 27 00:01:10,310 --> 00:01:08,580 Steven Spiegel and that should be a good 28 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:10,320 time mark D Antonio's on his way out 29 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:13,530 there and a number of other people so he 30 00:01:16,340 --> 00:01:14,850 is not gonna be joining us today 31 00:01:18,380 --> 00:01:16,350 unfortunately we couldn't get him on the 32 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:18,390 phone so he's not gonna be with us he 33 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:20,970 will be back next week as usual and 34 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:24,210 tonight's guest Chris Lambright Chris 35 00:01:29,630 --> 00:01:27,210 wrote a book X descending I read that 36 00:01:31,609 --> 00:01:29,640 book back in 2012 and I loved it it's 37 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:31,619 kind of like a two-part book the first 38 00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:34,170 part talks so I may have it backwards 39 00:01:38,870 --> 00:01:36,390 but the first part I believe talks about 40 00:01:41,690 --> 00:01:38,880 the Paul bennewitz case and the second 41 00:01:43,490 --> 00:01:41,700 part talks about race Stanford in the 42 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:43,500 work that he's done over the years and 43 00:01:48,109 --> 00:01:45,090 we're gonna be touching a little bit on 44 00:01:51,170 --> 00:01:48,119 that and Chris was on about a year ago 45 00:01:53,300 --> 00:01:51,180 and it's always great having him on and 46 00:01:54,859 --> 00:01:53,310 I'm a little under the weather so he's 47 00:01:57,319 --> 00:01:54,869 gonna be talking most of the talk 48 00:02:00,080 --> 00:01:57,329 tonight I hope anyway welcome to the 49 00:02:03,830 --> 00:02:00,090 show Chris I'm Arden how are you great 50 00:02:06,230 --> 00:02:03,840 great and I it's funny you know one of 51 00:02:09,380 --> 00:02:06,240 the things this show has brought his 52 00:02:11,630 --> 00:02:09,390 good friends like you you know you and I 53 00:02:13,350 --> 00:02:11,640 actually talked quite a bit and along 54 00:02:16,410 --> 00:02:13,360 with Ray Stanford 55 00:02:19,140 --> 00:02:16,420 you know it's that's one of the great 56 00:02:20,850 --> 00:02:19,150 benefits of doing this show it is I hope 57 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:20,860 we can meet at some conference one of 58 00:02:26,610 --> 00:02:22,690 these days yeah now we're just meeting 59 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:26,620 digitally so hey Chris you've been at it 60 00:02:33,420 --> 00:02:29,650 for such a long time years and years and 61 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:33,430 you've you've done a lot of great work 62 00:02:38,220 --> 00:02:35,890 but you know I don't know if we've ever 63 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:38,230 talked about this what was your 64 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:41,650 childhood like you know did you have any 65 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:43,690 experiences or anything that I know that 66 00:02:48,510 --> 00:02:45,730 I I do remember something about you 67 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:48,520 lived overseas with your parents there 68 00:02:52,650 --> 00:02:50,650 were missionaries or something yes my 69 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:52,660 father was a surgeon with the Southern 70 00:02:57,260 --> 00:02:54,370 Baptist mission field and we went over 71 00:03:00,330 --> 00:02:57,270 there when I was three until about ten 72 00:03:01,890 --> 00:03:00,340 actually it was the Communist kind of 73 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:01,900 started uprising a little bit if anybody 74 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:04,330 has ever seen the the old Mel Gibson 75 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:06,370 movie a year of living dangerously it 76 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:09,610 took place in Indonesia 1965 and there 77 00:03:14,100 --> 00:03:12,850 was a little bit of a turmoil with the 78 00:03:16,770 --> 00:03:14,110 Communists who were trying to stir up 79 00:03:18,270 --> 00:03:16,780 trouble and at some point my parents got 80 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:18,280 together we had to there was a little 81 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:20,110 incident and we had five hours to leave 82 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:22,450 so we left everything and left flew back 83 00:03:27,870 --> 00:03:25,510 to the States but to go into my 84 00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:27,880 childhood early on I've never had a an 85 00:03:31,830 --> 00:03:29,769 actual experience of my own that I would 86 00:03:34,170 --> 00:03:31,840 tell anyone was a UFO experience I 87 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:34,180 didn't find out until years later that 88 00:03:40,350 --> 00:03:36,250 my parents when they were in Indonesia 89 00:03:42,090 --> 00:03:40,360 actually had an experience with I guess 90 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:42,100 there were like 30 people that had all 91 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:44,650 gone to meet at the I guess the mayor's 92 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:47,470 house there was no electricity on the 93 00:03:51,180 --> 00:03:49,570 end we were on the the eastern end of 94 00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:51,190 the island kind of down towards Bali in 95 00:03:55,860 --> 00:03:53,830 a little town called kediri and at the 96 00:03:57,539 --> 00:03:55,870 time the only planes you su saw flying 97 00:03:58,740 --> 00:03:57,549 were flying to Jakarta which was on the 98 00:04:01,650 --> 00:03:58,750 west end and there was really no 99 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:01,660 electricity after dark so for anybody 100 00:04:04,470 --> 00:04:03,250 that had to do anything in this case 101 00:04:05,490 --> 00:04:04,480 they were at a party at the mayor's 102 00:04:07,860 --> 00:04:05,500 office with some of the other 103 00:04:11,340 --> 00:04:07,870 missionaries and townspeople sitting 104 00:04:12,449 --> 00:04:11,350 outside watching a screen I guess the 105 00:04:13,740 --> 00:04:12,459 mayor had electricity and they were 106 00:04:16,199 --> 00:04:13,750 watching some movie sitting out on the 107 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:16,209 lawn and my mother had described it to 108 00:04:20,550 --> 00:04:18,010 me and my father verified he remembered 109 00:04:22,409 --> 00:04:20,560 it that if anybody's familiar with 110 00:04:24,719 --> 00:04:22,419 coconut trees this they were sitting out 111 00:04:27,150 --> 00:04:24,729 in the lawn and suddenly they looked up 112 00:04:30,390 --> 00:04:27,160 and about twice the height of a coconut 113 00:04:32,220 --> 00:04:30,400 it's just imagine a telephone pole this 114 00:04:35,970 --> 00:04:32,230 large glowing object just moved in 115 00:04:39,180 --> 00:04:35,980 slowly and hovered momentarily over the 116 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:39,190 group below and I remember my mother's 117 00:04:44,010 --> 00:04:41,650 saying they all thought wow that's a UFO 118 00:04:45,540 --> 00:04:44,020 and must be coming to see what they were 119 00:04:48,870 --> 00:04:45,550 watching and then it slowly moved off 120 00:04:50,670 --> 00:04:48,880 and of course the the significance of it 121 00:04:52,890 --> 00:04:50,680 was that there was no air travel or 122 00:04:55,590 --> 00:04:52,900 planes of any sort low on that end there 123 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:55,600 was no lights or anything else and but 124 00:04:59,700 --> 00:04:57,130 afterwards they went home and nobody 125 00:05:00,750 --> 00:04:59,710 talked about it and that stunned me more 126 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:00,760 than anything because I would have 127 00:05:05,070 --> 00:05:02,410 thought wouldn't you be in the car just 128 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:05,080 jabbering about the possibilities and I 129 00:05:10,470 --> 00:05:06,130 always thought it was really strange 130 00:05:13,140 --> 00:05:10,480 that it took they took it so I'm even 131 00:05:16,260 --> 00:05:13,150 when she described it to me it was just 132 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:16,270 this large round disc or light either 133 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:18,850 the whole thing was was lit up but 134 00:05:23,070 --> 00:05:20,770 nobody ran OH 135 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:23,080 like in the movies I was never quite 136 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:26,050 sure how to think about that but well 137 00:05:31,020 --> 00:05:27,970 you know anyway I've heard many times 138 00:05:33,030 --> 00:05:31,030 where people have said that they haven't 139 00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:33,040 discussed it well they'll see it and 140 00:05:37,230 --> 00:05:34,780 they won't even talk about it and a 141 00:05:41,460 --> 00:05:37,240 number of people have said right on this 142 00:05:43,530 --> 00:05:41,470 show that they experienced a UFO with 143 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:43,540 other people and they never talked about 144 00:05:49,290 --> 00:05:46,450 it at all I remember Peter Robbins had 145 00:05:51,450 --> 00:05:49,300 that experience and I I know there's 146 00:05:54,659 --> 00:05:51,460 been a number of people a friend of mine 147 00:05:56,340 --> 00:05:54,669 actually in the antique world had an 148 00:05:57,840 --> 00:05:56,350 amazing siding with his friends and they 149 00:05:59,659 --> 00:05:57,850 never talked about it 150 00:06:02,790 --> 00:05:59,669 even after that they were all scared I 151 00:06:04,830 --> 00:06:02,800 wonder what that is I don't know it's 152 00:06:06,570 --> 00:06:04,840 crazy because originally when I was in 153 00:06:08,010 --> 00:06:06,580 Indonesia and all the way up through 154 00:06:10,670 --> 00:06:08,020 high school I wanted to go into 155 00:06:13,530 --> 00:06:10,680 astronomy and for one reason or another 156 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:13,540 explanation for it I never ended up 157 00:06:16,980 --> 00:06:15,010 doing that so I ended up getting a 158 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:16,990 degree in psychology which I did nothing 159 00:06:23,010 --> 00:06:19,330 really with after I got into computers 160 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:23,020 years later but it was not long before I 161 00:06:28,830 --> 00:06:26,470 started working on the book that the 162 00:06:32,010 --> 00:06:28,840 whole idea of people's beliefs and what 163 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:32,020 they prefer to believe and how things 164 00:06:36,930 --> 00:06:34,330 that seemed to fly in the face of what 165 00:06:39,450 --> 00:06:36,940 they believe things should be like 166 00:06:40,980 --> 00:06:39,460 Fineman used to say a paradox is just 167 00:06:42,750 --> 00:06:40,990 the conflict between 168 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:42,760 reality and what you think it should be 169 00:06:49,620 --> 00:06:47,170 and I think in some cases perhaps it's 170 00:06:52,830 --> 00:06:49,630 kind of overwhelms your ability to 171 00:06:55,950 --> 00:06:52,840 really fully comprehend and fit it in so 172 00:06:59,310 --> 00:06:55,960 it's better to just you know it flies on 173 00:07:01,590 --> 00:06:59,320 by I hate citing quotes but there was a 174 00:07:03,690 --> 00:07:01,600 famous one I think it was a Churchill 175 00:07:06,300 --> 00:07:03,700 who said mend some something to defect 176 00:07:08,670 --> 00:07:06,310 men sometimes stumble across the truth 177 00:07:10,140 --> 00:07:08,680 but usually they quickly jump up and 178 00:07:13,650 --> 00:07:10,150 brush themselves off and hurry on their 179 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:13,660 way so it's perhaps easier to just not 180 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:15,070 think about it and not say anything 181 00:07:21,210 --> 00:07:18,570 about it and it kind of goes away but 182 00:07:24,510 --> 00:07:21,220 one of the cases I've not judges thought 183 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:24,520 of this and that's when I had listened 184 00:07:31,770 --> 00:07:29,050 to Chuck faults and I'm trying to think 185 00:07:36,780 --> 00:07:31,780 of the other one from the allagash 186 00:07:40,410 --> 00:07:36,790 incident when I interviewed them they 187 00:07:43,380 --> 00:07:40,420 both Jack Jack and Chuck they both said 188 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:43,390 that no one talked about this an amazing 189 00:07:47,190 --> 00:07:45,250 you know amazing experience he had when 190 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:47,200 they went back to the campfire they all 191 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:49,030 just felt very tired and went to bed and 192 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:51,760 they never never talked about it and it 193 00:07:56,790 --> 00:07:54,820 was like 10 years later for them you 194 00:07:59,340 --> 00:07:56,800 know before the flashbacks and 195 00:08:02,010 --> 00:07:59,350 everything you know I don't know I mean 196 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:02,020 I the closest analogy that I had ever 197 00:08:05,850 --> 00:08:03,610 come up with and talking to my friends 198 00:08:07,590 --> 00:08:05,860 was something to the effect if you're in 199 00:08:09,930 --> 00:08:07,600 a neighborhood and you know you're 200 00:08:13,020 --> 00:08:09,940 looking out for your kids and suddenly 201 00:08:14,790 --> 00:08:13,030 someone suggests that there's somebody 202 00:08:16,380 --> 00:08:14,800 who's released from you know something 203 00:08:19,290 --> 00:08:16,390 John molester who's been released living 204 00:08:20,550 --> 00:08:19,300 next door to you most parents don't want 205 00:08:22,050 --> 00:08:20,560 I mean maybe they don't want their kids 206 00:08:25,140 --> 00:08:22,060 going out there but the initial reaction 207 00:08:27,660 --> 00:08:25,150 is now but I don't want to believe it it 208 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:27,670 will require that you change and it why 209 00:08:31,980 --> 00:08:29,110 you change what you do and it will 210 00:08:34,410 --> 00:08:31,990 suddenly and I think it's you know 211 00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:34,420 people people deny things and sometimes 212 00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:36,910 I think that's a good thing but um yeah 213 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:39,070 but I don't know anyway yeah but anyway 214 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:42,850 so I got into somewhere while I was in 215 00:08:50,580 --> 00:08:46,890 high school I recall in Kansas City I 216 00:08:51,780 --> 00:08:50,590 somehow I got my parents to just drive 217 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:51,790 me to it there must have been a 218 00:08:56,340 --> 00:08:54,010 conference or a convention of a UFO some 219 00:08:57,870 --> 00:08:56,350 going on because I remember I recognized 220 00:09:00,200 --> 00:08:57,880 Hynek when he went by I don't remember 221 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:00,210 the year but it had to be way back in 222 00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:03,730 60s 70s some time or other that's maybe 223 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:05,110 something in the seventh grade which I 224 00:09:08,730 --> 00:09:06,310 think I wrote about in the book was the 225 00:09:12,030 --> 00:09:08,740 earliest that I recall having even had a 226 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:12,040 passing interest in the subject and then 227 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:14,410 I think it wasn't really I'm sure I read 228 00:09:17,850 --> 00:09:16,090 all the books but it wasn't until after 229 00:09:19,140 --> 00:09:17,860 college and especially the last year in 230 00:09:21,150 --> 00:09:19,150 college had a great professor of 231 00:09:24,930 --> 00:09:21,160 psychology who was open to talk about 232 00:09:27,210 --> 00:09:24,940 everything and somewhere after that I I 233 00:09:29,370 --> 00:09:27,220 think I met Tom bland and not too long 234 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:29,380 after that I think is I finally got in 235 00:09:33,870 --> 00:09:32,170 touch with Ray but but anyway it was I 236 00:09:34,860 --> 00:09:33,880 don't recall exactly how it just kind of 237 00:09:38,670 --> 00:09:34,870 crept up on me 238 00:09:42,410 --> 00:09:38,680 and here we are so you know how long ago 239 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:42,420 did you write the book X descending 240 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:45,370 2012-2013 I'll be four or five years now 241 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:49,090 and had you thought quite a while before 242 00:09:53,430 --> 00:09:50,530 you wrote that book and what you were 243 00:09:56,940 --> 00:09:53,440 gonna do no I had no interest in writing 244 00:09:58,650 --> 00:09:56,950 a book I had zero in fact my interests 245 00:09:59,790 --> 00:09:58,660 and that's part of the reason I've just 246 00:10:01,560 --> 00:09:59,800 moved Austin you get the blank 247 00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:01,570 background because I haven't even had a 248 00:10:06,540 --> 00:10:02,830 chance to unload everything in this 249 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:06,550 house but my interest moving here was 250 00:10:10,770 --> 00:10:09,250 more in screenwriting and film work and 251 00:10:12,330 --> 00:10:10,780 whatnot and of course fortunately with 252 00:10:14,610 --> 00:10:12,340 the digital revolution you can now 253 00:10:16,860 --> 00:10:14,620 pretty well do it all yourself you have 254 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:16,870 a decent camera you can go out and film 255 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:18,850 lots of different things and whether 256 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:20,050 they're on YouTube or some of the 257 00:10:24,780 --> 00:10:21,370 network shows you know the guys running 258 00:10:29,490 --> 00:10:24,790 around holding his own camera but but it 259 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:29,500 was you know deference to Ray it was 260 00:10:33,510 --> 00:10:31,810 when I decided okay I thought I'll take 261 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:33,520 my first shot at screenwriting and I was 262 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:35,410 gonna write something about it with an 263 00:10:39,570 --> 00:10:36,850 idea of how would you put this into a 264 00:10:43,260 --> 00:10:39,580 film and whatever else and and at some 265 00:10:45,510 --> 00:10:43,270 point along the way I just decided you 266 00:10:47,370 --> 00:10:45,520 know what this is what I want I'll write 267 00:10:49,290 --> 00:10:47,380 this as a book it was out of frustration 268 00:10:53,580 --> 00:10:49,300 it was not that I have any interest in 269 00:10:55,620 --> 00:10:53,590 writing books but then I realized at 270 00:10:57,780 --> 00:10:55,630 that point because so much of my 271 00:11:00,210 --> 00:10:57,790 interests at the time had gone back to 272 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:00,220 uh to Paul bennewitz and the things that 273 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:03,370 he filmed and subsequently the more I 274 00:11:09,630 --> 00:11:07,810 found out about aspects of Ray's film 275 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:09,640 and who had seen it and that sort of 276 00:11:13,140 --> 00:11:11,650 thing that's where they both suddenly 277 00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:13,150 began to tie in with the Air Force 278 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:16,270 Research Lab Air Force weapons lab and 279 00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:18,010 bennewitz as time and now Air Force 280 00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:20,880 Research Lab and so to me that 281 00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:22,720 coincidence of that was almost 282 00:11:28,950 --> 00:11:24,910 mind-boggling to think two totally 283 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:28,960 separate films eventually would kind of 284 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:31,330 seemingly lead me to connections that 285 00:11:34,740 --> 00:11:32,530 went right back to the Air Force 286 00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:34,750 Research Lab Air Force weapons lab so 287 00:11:40,020 --> 00:11:37,600 that's where the in that's what the 288 00:11:41,910 --> 00:11:40,030 reason that excuse me that's the reason 289 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:41,920 you have the benifits film and Rey's 290 00:11:47,250 --> 00:11:44,890 film in the book it wasn't just a book 291 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:47,260 about two random films it was because 292 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:49,330 they both tied into the Air Force 293 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:52,870 Research Lab and the coincidence of that 294 00:11:59,040 --> 00:11:56,650 I think was a little bit too much if in 295 00:12:03,330 --> 00:11:59,050 short Benowitz of course when he 296 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:03,340 contacted the Air Force Jerry Miller 297 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:04,690 some of the other you know the other 298 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:08,410 figures that were involved there one of 299 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:10,210 the guys that in Greg bishops book 300 00:12:14,460 --> 00:12:11,770 claimed to have snuck into Paul's house 301 00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:14,470 who was running this Starfire optical 302 00:12:17,340 --> 00:12:16,240 range a lot of these things of course 303 00:12:19,710 --> 00:12:17,350 were right there on the grounds of 304 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:19,720 Kirtland and the Air Force weapons lab 305 00:12:23,010 --> 00:12:21,610 and research lab was involved and a 306 00:12:27,330 --> 00:12:23,020 whole lot of that directed energy 307 00:12:29,630 --> 00:12:27,340 research and then subsequently with you 308 00:12:32,070 --> 00:12:29,640 know with race film when it turned out 309 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:32,080 finding out who had come to see his film 310 00:12:37,170 --> 00:12:33,730 and the subsequent developments that 311 00:12:38,790 --> 00:12:37,180 came from that and following every so 312 00:12:39,180 --> 00:12:38,800 often doing searching to see what he's 313 00:12:43,830 --> 00:12:39,190 up to 314 00:12:45,540 --> 00:12:43,840 and realizing okay so now he's gone down 315 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:45,550 there and he's on a grant from the Air 316 00:12:50,220 --> 00:12:47,530 Force propulsion Directorate of the Air 317 00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:50,230 Force Research Lab to work on his light 318 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:52,590 craft project and I thought 319 00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:55,210 howdy just happened to know subsequently 320 00:13:00,690 --> 00:12:56,910 if you look in the book you'll realize a 321 00:13:02,190 --> 00:13:00,700 lot of the people in the aerospace 322 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:02,200 industry and especially the new 323 00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:04,090 developments and course work on 324 00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:05,440 directed-energy these sorts of things 325 00:13:08,940 --> 00:13:07,120 these people attend the same conferences 326 00:13:10,770 --> 00:13:08,950 and you know get to know each other in 327 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:10,780 franklin mead who was with the 328 00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:12,970 propulsion Directorate who I think in my 329 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:15,070 words overseeing the grant that Mirabeau 330 00:13:21,060 --> 00:13:19,510 got I read one time that he was like the 331 00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:21,070 head of the exotic 332 00:13:25,710 --> 00:13:24,310 as division and which of course explains 333 00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:25,720 I guess why he would attend some of 334 00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:28,720 these conferences on the International 335 00:13:33,690 --> 00:13:30,550 Society on beamed energy propulsion or 336 00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:33,700 the the old NASA's advanced futuristic 337 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:35,230 concepts that sort of thing where you'd 338 00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:36,610 have people presenting papers on 339 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:38,560 different topics so it's not so 340 00:13:42,690 --> 00:13:40,930 surprising that you know that perhaps he 341 00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:42,700 and Mirabeau would get together of 342 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:43,690 course I think it's interesting that 343 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:46,450 since he retired last I heard he and 344 00:13:51,810 --> 00:13:48,250 Mirabeau basically jointly formed a 345 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:51,820 company to work on the light craft 346 00:13:57,410 --> 00:13:54,010 aspect of it but needless to say it was 347 00:14:01,590 --> 00:13:57,420 just the coincidence of in one case 348 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:01,600 bennewitz kind of he got it stuck to him 349 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:04,210 for uh I guess talking a little bit too 350 00:14:09,090 --> 00:14:07,510 much but he was right there looking over 351 00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:09,100 the grounds were essentially the Air 352 00:14:13,470 --> 00:14:11,350 Force weapons lab had their what the 353 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:13,480 space vehicles Directorate now that's 354 00:14:16,650 --> 00:14:15,250 what I believe it's called and then 355 00:14:17,850 --> 00:14:16,660 Mirabeau ends up falling in with 356 00:14:19,620 --> 00:14:17,860 Franklin Meade from the Air Force 357 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:19,630 Research Lab propulsion Directorate but 358 00:14:24,060 --> 00:14:22,510 he gets a grant if you may recall him 359 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:24,070 when appalls and one of the documents 360 00:14:28,590 --> 00:14:26,650 about Paul when he went down to the base 361 00:14:31,890 --> 00:14:28,600 I think was that November of 1980 and 362 00:14:33,930 --> 00:14:31,900 kind of gave his presentation that one 363 00:14:36,690 --> 00:14:33,940 of the men from somewhere I don't recall 364 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:36,700 right there at Kirtland had talked to 365 00:14:39,450 --> 00:14:38,110 him about perhaps getting a grant to 366 00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:39,460 study and helping him fill out the 367 00:14:44,850 --> 00:14:42,880 paperwork but it never happened so I 368 00:14:46,590 --> 00:14:44,860 don't know what I don't know why or who 369 00:14:49,170 --> 00:14:46,600 exactly that was or what the rationale 370 00:14:50,460 --> 00:14:49,180 was for it but hey I guess if you're the 371 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:50,470 right if you're a team player you get a 372 00:14:55,740 --> 00:14:53,890 grant well huh but anyway that's how the 373 00:14:58,170 --> 00:14:55,750 book ended up talking about those two 374 00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:58,180 films because they were definitely films 375 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:01,600 definitely showed things there was good 376 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:03,610 support for the film's being what they 377 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:07,330 are and oddly enough both guys end up 378 00:15:12,540 --> 00:15:10,510 having run-ins or connections to to the 379 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:12,550 Air Force Research Lab which that's 380 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:15,640 interesting so anyway now I I want to 381 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:17,170 touch on a whole bit a bunch of 382 00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:20,170 different things you know later on also 383 00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:23,950 raised film and what you're talking 384 00:15:28,290 --> 00:15:26,320 about the Bema head situation you know 385 00:15:31,140 --> 00:15:28,300 the Bema headlight and all that but I 386 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:31,150 want to talk about Richard Doty right 387 00:15:34,860 --> 00:15:33,130 off the bat because I don't know if you 388 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:34,870 happen to see 389 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:37,850 it's dark dr. Stephens career Greer's 390 00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:40,130 latest film on Netflix did you happen to 391 00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:43,070 watch that no I haven't yeah okay well I 392 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:45,590 sort of critiqued it I guess 393 00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:49,910 not too nicely but anyway one of the 394 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:52,160 things that I was absolutely shocked by 395 00:15:58,330 --> 00:15:54,650 and I think you might be too but maybe 396 00:16:00,250 --> 00:15:58,340 not his Richard Doty is on I was in the 397 00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:00,260 film quite a bit and he's actually 398 00:16:04,210 --> 00:16:02,510 talking about aliens as if he's seen 399 00:16:08,530 --> 00:16:04,220 them himself 400 00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:08,540 it's really bizarre and he's he's in it 401 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:11,510 you know maybe 10 times and with spots 402 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:14,170 and he never once says anything negative 403 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:17,210 like against UFOs or against the 404 00:16:22,180 --> 00:16:19,010 possibility of UFOs matter of fact he 405 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:22,190 confirms them and it's really bizarre I 406 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:25,330 actually wanted you know as much of 407 00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:28,250 grief as he has caused I'd actually like 408 00:16:33,220 --> 00:16:31,310 to have them on my show sometime - I 409 00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:33,230 don't want to say interrogate him but 410 00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:35,600 trying to find out what he's about and 411 00:16:42,030 --> 00:16:39,800 you know it doesn't make any sense well 412 00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:42,040 I mean I you know like I said I've 413 00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:46,790 spoken to him once or twice over you 414 00:16:52,330 --> 00:16:48,790 know - 20 years since the middle 1980s 415 00:16:55,630 --> 00:16:52,340 it's never been a jovial friendly 416 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:55,640 conversation because and perhaps because 417 00:16:59,500 --> 00:16:57,050 of me because I tend to have found 418 00:17:03,070 --> 00:16:59,510 points that don't add up and the minute 419 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:03,080 you ask it goes south quickly so I'm not 420 00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:06,530 and I guess in a way I'd make two points 421 00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:16,020 Air Force specifically in this case 422 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:19,400 anyone who had had ties or connections 423 00:17:23,710 --> 00:17:22,130 in any way with I don't know if you 424 00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:23,720 would directly call it an intelligence 425 00:17:28,660 --> 00:17:26,270 agency but an investigative agency I 426 00:17:31,420 --> 00:17:28,670 mean none of the other people that were 427 00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:31,430 mentioned in the Benowitz case or say a 428 00:17:33,810 --> 00:17:33,320 word anymore you don't hear from them at 429 00:17:35,860 --> 00:17:33,820 all 430 00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:35,870 Ernest Edwards who was the first person 431 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:37,760 bennewitz talk to and who had gone to 432 00:17:42,490 --> 00:17:39,650 Benowitz his house and had seen the 433 00:17:44,350 --> 00:17:42,500 films I don't know if he was earlier 434 00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:44,360 than Dodi but of course he's supposedly 435 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:48,480 handed or passed off Paul - Richard Doty 436 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:50,530 Edwards I would think at that point 437 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:52,690 would be somebody well worth talking to 438 00:17:56,970 --> 00:17:54,370 because one of the documents that I 439 00:17:59,730 --> 00:17:56,980 found which narrowed down for me 440 00:18:03,300 --> 00:17:59,740 specifically when Paul got those films 441 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:03,310 was that Edwards first contact was Paul 442 00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:04,930 was it was a document in which he stated 443 00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:08,310 he was talking to two guys from Sandia 444 00:18:15,090 --> 00:18:10,480 that he had first heard from Paul in 445 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:15,100 January of 1980 much much further ahead 446 00:18:20,460 --> 00:18:18,970 or much further back earlier than any of 447 00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:20,470 the documents that P the Kirtland 448 00:18:25,310 --> 00:18:23,230 documents they say which imply but never 449 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:25,320 state so people have had the 450 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:27,600 misunderstanding that thinking Paul 451 00:18:32,610 --> 00:18:30,010 experiences began in the middle of 1980 452 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:32,620 when no they hadn't but you'll notice 453 00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:33,970 there are no documents for that first 454 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:36,160 five or six months my point simply being 455 00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:37,840 that even when Edwards had gone on tours 456 00:18:40,470 --> 00:18:39,190 of duty and come back and had gotten 457 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:40,480 back in touch with Paul and he'd 458 00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:42,610 contacted his superior and saying I'm 459 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:44,280 back in touch with Paul I'll fill you in 460 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:47,290 mm-hmm Edwards isn't talking I mean 461 00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:49,570 nobody's he's not out there taking 462 00:18:53,940 --> 00:18:51,150 interview requests and I would imagine 463 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:53,950 he would have a substantial amount of 464 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:56,050 information he could add to it but for 465 00:19:00,930 --> 00:18:58,210 some reason Dodi's seemed to have become 466 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:00,940 the go-to guy and I don't know whether 467 00:19:05,010 --> 00:19:03,190 it's because the minute he knocked on 468 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:05,020 Paul's door his face was known so 469 00:19:10,620 --> 00:19:07,570 there's no point in him trying to be 470 00:19:12,030 --> 00:19:10,630 anonymous anymore or whether you know 471 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:12,040 you put a candle out there and you know 472 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:12,970 that all the mosques are gonna be 473 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:15,010 attracted to it and if nothing else now 474 00:19:18,750 --> 00:19:16,810 Dodi starts taking names and he knows 475 00:19:20,250 --> 00:19:18,760 exactly who's coming I mean that's my 476 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:20,260 speculation but it's the only reason I 477 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:23,890 can imagine why he would at least be 478 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:25,410 willing to go on camera and keep talking 479 00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:28,530 of course what bothers me the most is I 480 00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:31,270 have a suspicion it's like joining the 481 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:33,280 FBI if he's hired by the FBI you're not 482 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:33,970 an idiot 483 00:19:40,290 --> 00:19:36,250 yeah if you get hired to work with AF 484 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:40,300 OSI you're not an idiot and there were 485 00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:44,050 aspects of things that I found and I 486 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:46,390 think everything that I knew I believe 487 00:19:57,030 --> 00:19:55,050 convinced me Dodi was you know he was 488 00:20:00,190 --> 00:19:57,040 the point man right there but whatever 489 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:00,200 he's saying about his past experiences 490 00:20:06,190 --> 00:20:04,490 I don't think I would I mean how are you 491 00:20:07,509 --> 00:20:06,200 gonna prove it how are you gonna know 492 00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:07,519 not to know the best thing to do to me 493 00:20:12,009 --> 00:20:08,720 is just let it ride because he's 494 00:20:14,649 --> 00:20:12,019 obviously was involved in defusing Paul 495 00:20:17,470 --> 00:20:14,659 bennewitz and he's come out and said any 496 00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:17,480 number of other things and then as I 497 00:20:24,610 --> 00:20:20,240 wrote in the book and the the addendum 498 00:20:28,419 --> 00:20:24,620 about he and John Lear being at Lima 499 00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:28,429 site 21a and over in Laos which should 500 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:32,049 have been before he was in the military 501 00:20:36,610 --> 00:20:35,210 but I found his email address on an old 502 00:20:38,409 --> 00:20:36,620 history when the History Channel had a 503 00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:38,419 forum in which he stated he was over 504 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:40,880 there and when the base leaned aside 85 505 00:20:48,669 --> 00:20:43,010 was attacked he was at Linda's site 21 506 00:20:51,009 --> 00:20:48,679 20 a and I began to think wait that's 507 00:20:53,740 --> 00:20:51,019 the same base that John Lear claims he 508 00:20:56,019 --> 00:20:53,750 was flying in and out of so there but as 509 00:20:58,810 --> 00:20:56,029 soon as I confronted him with it done it 510 00:21:00,490 --> 00:20:58,820 was you know so I couldn't place him 511 00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:00,500 both there at the same time but that 512 00:21:06,759 --> 00:21:03,919 whole thing you know if I I convinced 513 00:21:09,310 --> 00:21:06,769 myself to trust my instincts that smoke 514 00:21:11,889 --> 00:21:09,320 had some serious fire behind it which 515 00:21:14,139 --> 00:21:11,899 keep in mind what are the odds two guys 516 00:21:17,289 --> 00:21:14,149 come to be at the same place 10 or so 517 00:21:19,899 --> 00:21:17,299 years before never getting involved both 518 00:21:22,629 --> 00:21:19,909 end up right there talking to Paul 519 00:21:23,710 --> 00:21:22,639 Bennett a UFO case but playing both 520 00:21:26,649 --> 00:21:23,720 sides of the coin to good-cop bad-cop 521 00:21:28,990 --> 00:21:26,659 side well that's mighty coincidental I'm 522 00:21:30,370 --> 00:21:29,000 the only tie in that came in bought in 523 00:21:34,419 --> 00:21:30,380 both other and I could see was actually 524 00:21:36,370 --> 00:21:34,429 CIA now Dodi did say his brother was in 525 00:21:38,649 --> 00:21:36,380 the CIA in the southern part of Laos 526 00:21:40,419 --> 00:21:38,659 something to that effect his brother his 527 00:21:45,370 --> 00:21:40,429 cousin or somebody so I don't know how 528 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:45,380 that works but me personally I if he's 529 00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:46,970 out there talking now about aliens and 530 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:47,510 everything else 531 00:21:51,909 --> 00:21:49,730 I suspect it's I don't know if they're 532 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:51,919 paying him for it maybe not I don't know 533 00:21:56,019 --> 00:21:53,690 if he's just doing that because in a way 534 00:22:00,940 --> 00:21:56,029 keeps his face out there but now he's 535 00:22:01,899 --> 00:22:00,950 talking a lot of bunk perhaps and so if 536 00:22:03,220 --> 00:22:01,909 you don't know what to think of him 537 00:22:04,930 --> 00:22:03,230 before you certainly won't know now 538 00:22:08,769 --> 00:22:04,940 which is really just more smokescreen 539 00:22:12,639 --> 00:22:08,779 yeah but but I think the record shows 540 00:22:13,670 --> 00:22:12,649 that he was he was there if Paul called 541 00:22:15,020 --> 00:22:13,680 Edwards and Jan 542 00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:15,030 and wanted to talk to him about those 543 00:22:18,610 --> 00:22:17,400 films and Edwards put him in touch with 544 00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:18,620 Doty 545 00:22:25,850 --> 00:22:23,700 until the middle of the year to ever go 546 00:22:27,230 --> 00:22:25,860 up and talk to Paul he would have hooked 547 00:22:29,930 --> 00:22:27,240 it over there or over to Thunder 548 00:22:31,910 --> 00:22:29,940 Scientific right away he would have 549 00:22:33,470 --> 00:22:31,920 known early on what was going on if it 550 00:22:34,910 --> 00:22:33,480 was something serious just like in the 551 00:22:36,830 --> 00:22:34,920 document I mentioned when Edwards got 552 00:22:38,450 --> 00:22:36,840 off talking after talking to the Sandia 553 00:22:40,340 --> 00:22:38,460 guys he immediately wrote up this stuff 554 00:22:42,650 --> 00:22:40,350 and talks to his boss and tells him 555 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:42,660 what's going on and fills him in on Doty 556 00:22:46,910 --> 00:22:43,890 would have done the same thing and there 557 00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:46,920 should be some documents but yeah I 558 00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:48,720 think we're that's a that's past history 559 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:51,030 yeah Chris um one of the things I've 560 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:53,850 failed to do here and and I really 561 00:22:59,930 --> 00:22:56,490 should be more aware of this and that is 562 00:23:02,030 --> 00:22:59,940 there are a lot of people that listen to 563 00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:02,040 the show perhaps for the first time or 564 00:23:06,550 --> 00:23:04,320 it's perhaps the first time they've ever 565 00:23:09,980 --> 00:23:06,560 heard of the Paul bennewitz case and 566 00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:09,990 instead of just acting like we we kind 567 00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:12,240 of know how things go why don't you in a 568 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:15,960 nutshell as briefly as you can you know 569 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:17,850 tell the listener who's never heard 570 00:23:22,190 --> 00:23:19,530 about the Paul bennewitz case so you 571 00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:22,200 know what happened sure okay 572 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:25,260 and for what it's worth everybody who 573 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:27,810 knows or sees anything about mj-12 or 574 00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:30,090 hears anything about Dulce and some 575 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:33,120 things that still are in the you know in 576 00:23:36,860 --> 00:23:35,490 the media so to speak right now all of 577 00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:36,870 these originated with the Paul bennewitz 578 00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:39,600 case he was a gentleman who lived in 579 00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:41,760 Albuquerque New Mexico and this is all 580 00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:46,380 in the late 70s and 80s he actually 581 00:23:50,420 --> 00:23:47,430 owned a company called Thunder 582 00:23:52,750 --> 00:23:50,430 Scientific that forgive me if I make a 583 00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:52,760 few mistakes on it here but they built 584 00:23:57,170 --> 00:23:55,500 humidity testing I think equipment and 585 00:24:00,650 --> 00:23:57,180 had contracts if I'm not mistaken with 586 00:24:03,890 --> 00:24:00,660 lots of military groups Air Force Navy 587 00:24:05,390 --> 00:24:03,900 whoever else and he was pretty well off 588 00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:05,400 I mean I think he worked with his sons 589 00:24:10,820 --> 00:24:08,790 there and in fact the one of the gates 590 00:24:12,590 --> 00:24:10,830 the main gate I guess it might be from 591 00:24:14,450 --> 00:24:12,600 Kirtland if you stand at the main gate 592 00:24:16,370 --> 00:24:14,460 and look across the street catty-corner 593 00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:16,380 that's worth under scientific is located 594 00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:19,230 so he was right there but he also lived 595 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:21,840 in like what I guess I would call the 596 00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:25,710 ritzy part of Albuquerque an area called 597 00:24:29,539 --> 00:24:26,640 the Four Hills 598 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:29,549 which is kind of a little bit mmm 599 00:24:35,180 --> 00:24:31,890 east-northeast you can find it on the 600 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:35,190 map and effectively right across the 601 00:24:41,150 --> 00:24:38,250 fence from Kirtland Air Force Base area 602 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:41,160 and had a straight line shot about two 603 00:24:45,230 --> 00:24:43,290 or three miles away I mean maybe even a 604 00:24:49,549 --> 00:24:45,240 mile or less on the northern end of it 605 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:49,559 anyway had a straight view of the three 606 00:24:54,020 --> 00:24:50,730 hills that formed them in the Sano 607 00:24:56,570 --> 00:24:54,030 weapons storage area which was a double 608 00:24:58,659 --> 00:24:56,580 perimeter electrified fence fenced off 609 00:25:01,400 --> 00:24:58,669 area inside Kirtland Air Force Base 610 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:01,410 because there were supposedly nuclear 611 00:25:06,020 --> 00:25:02,970 weapons or nuclear materials that were 612 00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:06,030 stored inside that Bay inside the three 613 00:25:12,350 --> 00:25:09,840 mounds the Manzano mountains area Paul 614 00:25:13,730 --> 00:25:12,360 had taken an interest in cattle 615 00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:13,740 mutilation goings-on that were happening 616 00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:16,049 in the late 70s and there was an actual 617 00:25:22,010 --> 00:25:20,070 meeting I think that took place I don't 618 00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:22,020 recall the exact date of it but he had 619 00:25:25,870 --> 00:25:24,000 been to this meeting and I think he's 620 00:25:27,950 --> 00:25:25,880 even listed on there is even a 621 00:25:30,190 --> 00:25:27,960 representative of a pro so to my 622 00:25:32,030 --> 00:25:30,200 understanding perhaps he had some 623 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:32,040 association I don't know how directly it 624 00:25:36,590 --> 00:25:34,890 was with a pro at the time but well 625 00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:36,600 there that's where he first heard in med 626 00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:38,100 I think Gabe Valdez and Gabe al 627 00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:39,630 discourse was the patrolman who was in 628 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:41,910 charge of the lot of the area around the 629 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:43,530 hickory Indian Reservation which is 630 00:25:47,150 --> 00:25:45,510 where Dulce and the Archuleta Mesa 631 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:47,160 essentially are right up in that area 632 00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:51,210 and Paul asked him to take him on a ride 633 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:52,500 at the time you were hearing about all 634 00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:53,730 the lights that they were being that 635 00:25:57,530 --> 00:25:55,200 were being seen in the cattle mutilation 636 00:26:00,289 --> 00:25:57,540 things going on and Gabe was a very well 637 00:26:02,780 --> 00:26:00,299 known figure and a respected figure at 638 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:02,790 the time in that area so in July I 639 00:26:07,789 --> 00:26:05,940 believe it was of 1979 Paul went out 640 00:26:09,530 --> 00:26:07,799 there one day and drove from Albuquerque 641 00:26:12,289 --> 00:26:09,540 up to that area and rode around with 642 00:26:15,740 --> 00:26:12,299 Gabe they saw some pretty bizarre things 643 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:15,750 which really sparked his interest and it 644 00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:17,370 was when he was leaving that he actually 645 00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:19,440 snapped a shot a little Polaroid 646 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:21,150 snapshot picture of the kind of the 647 00:26:23,870 --> 00:26:22,710 mountains showing I think the Dulce 648 00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:23,880 or the Archuleta Mesa area in the 649 00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:26,400 background that and later on his wife 650 00:26:31,460 --> 00:26:29,460 looked at that and saw some unusual saw 651 00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:31,470 something up by one of the trees and 652 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:33,900 I've seen that photo and I've looked at 653 00:26:38,060 --> 00:26:36,690 it and you can't tell what it is but it 654 00:26:39,650 --> 00:26:38,070 certainly seems to have some kind of 655 00:26:42,290 --> 00:26:39,660 geometric shape to whatever it 656 00:26:44,510 --> 00:26:42,300 that really set Paul off so he spent 657 00:26:47,150 --> 00:26:44,520 over the next 2-3 months in 79 driving 658 00:26:49,070 --> 00:26:47,160 up to Dolci area one time with his son a 659 00:26:51,020 --> 00:26:49,080 lot of this is in the book but the point 660 00:26:53,540 --> 00:26:51,030 was he was really interested but his 661 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:53,550 focus was on Dulce he was not paying any 662 00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:54,690 attention that I know of around 663 00:26:59,470 --> 00:26:56,370 Albuquerque at all he was driving up to 664 00:27:01,820 --> 00:26:59,480 Dulce the last time he went up there he 665 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:01,830 described some very unusual things but 666 00:27:05,330 --> 00:27:03,810 when he got back to Albuquerque his wife 667 00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,340 made a comment about something she 668 00:27:08,210 --> 00:27:06,720 thought she'd heard over buzzing-noise 669 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:08,220 and over the house and the dog was 670 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:10,500 marking and and that seems to be what 671 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:13,290 because of his previous interest in the 672 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:15,450 subject anyway sparked his interest and 673 00:27:19,940 --> 00:27:17,930 he began keep in mind this is my 674 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:19,950 calculation around the middle of 675 00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:22,650 December of 1979 very cold in 676 00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:26,640 Albuquerque but his house is condo or 677 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:28,380 whatever it's called you can kind of go 678 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:30,210 out and climb up on two levels and get 679 00:27:34,670 --> 00:27:32,130 up on the roof and now you're really up 680 00:27:36,650 --> 00:27:34,680 there and have a clean shot almost 360 681 00:27:38,420 --> 00:27:36,660 degrees of the whole Albuquerque area 682 00:27:39,770 --> 00:27:38,430 you can see the airport you can see 683 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:39,780 straight over to the Manzano's and 684 00:27:45,380 --> 00:27:41,970 whatnot and on one of the nights when he 685 00:27:47,270 --> 00:27:45,390 was out there I believe the description 686 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:47,280 was he first saw some odd things glowing 687 00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:48,510 on the ground this would have been about 688 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:51,120 two miles almost due south from where he 689 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:54,090 was but basically right at the base of 690 00:27:58,280 --> 00:27:56,010 these three mountains that are inside 691 00:27:59,930 --> 00:27:58,290 this double perimeter electrified fence 692 00:28:02,540 --> 00:27:59,940 so whatever this was seemed to be going 693 00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:02,550 on inside the area of the Emmons on a 694 00:28:08,270 --> 00:28:05,910 weapon storage area and he watched and 695 00:28:10,910 --> 00:28:08,280 eventually all of a sudden the objects 696 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:10,920 jumped up took off flew south went 697 00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:12,930 around the end of the mountain which of 698 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:14,520 course blew him away and so over the 699 00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,410 next few nights he'd sit out there and 700 00:28:19,910 --> 00:28:18,480 watch and usually when he got out there 701 00:28:21,860 --> 00:28:19,920 these things were already down 702 00:28:24,170 --> 00:28:21,870 apparently near the ground and at one 703 00:28:26,450 --> 00:28:24,180 point I described he had sent me some 704 00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:26,460 almost legal-sized pages of handwritten 705 00:28:30,740 --> 00:28:28,710 notes of of the time when he had seen 706 00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:30,750 these things and he had his wife out 707 00:28:35,830 --> 00:28:32,760 there with him so it wasn't just Paul by 708 00:28:38,780 --> 00:28:35,840 himself by that time he apparently had a 709 00:28:41,870 --> 00:28:38,790 Hasselblad camera that he had bought and 710 00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:41,880 he had a telescope with a camera mounted 711 00:28:47,390 --> 00:28:44,640 on it he had a 250 lint millimeter lens 712 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:47,400 on I mean he had several different types 713 00:28:52,340 --> 00:28:50,370 of cameras and film equipment up there 714 00:28:52,990 --> 00:28:52,350 and was able to even tell his wife when 715 00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:53,000 he'd see 716 00:28:58,180 --> 00:28:55,039 bright flash below one of the objects 717 00:28:59,830 --> 00:28:58,190 and a few seconds later boom they light 718 00:29:01,450 --> 00:28:59,840 up so brightly that he said it would 719 00:29:02,770 --> 00:29:01,460 you'd almost expect the explosion to 720 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:02,780 come rolling across the plains but 721 00:29:06,490 --> 00:29:05,450 you're no sound at all but oh it must 722 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:06,500 have taken place over three or four 723 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:08,210 nights that he was in one time I think 724 00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:09,770 he even got out there early enough to 725 00:29:14,140 --> 00:29:12,110 see the objects may have been one or all 726 00:29:15,789 --> 00:29:14,150 of them coming around the soft side of 727 00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:15,799 the mountain and he the way he described 728 00:29:19,330 --> 00:29:17,809 it was it came around that Mountain 729 00:29:21,549 --> 00:29:19,340 would drop straight down and five 730 00:29:24,909 --> 00:29:21,559 seconds lights out so whatever they were 731 00:29:27,789 --> 00:29:24,919 would apparently my conjecture at this 732 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:27,799 point but low enough to not be caught on 733 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:30,289 the Albuquerque Airport radar because as 734 00:29:34,330 --> 00:29:32,090 long as they stowed stayed below the 735 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:34,340 altitude of those three mountain peaks I 736 00:29:38,590 --> 00:29:36,530 presume they would be ignored and if 737 00:29:40,690 --> 00:29:38,600 anybody saw them from a distance two 738 00:29:42,610 --> 00:29:40,700 miles away and just caught him one time 739 00:29:45,820 --> 00:29:42,620 you might think helicopters who would 740 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:45,830 know but he got all this on film and the 741 00:29:49,990 --> 00:29:47,570 eight millimeter films are some of the 742 00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:50,000 images that I recreate are reproduced in 743 00:29:55,659 --> 00:29:53,600 in the book but it wasn't until years 744 00:29:57,820 --> 00:29:55,669 later when Photoshop and you had image 745 00:29:59,560 --> 00:29:57,830 enhancement techniques that I remember 746 00:30:00,970 --> 00:29:59,570 being really surprised when I asked him 747 00:30:03,399 --> 00:30:00,980 one time about him he said all the 748 00:30:04,810 --> 00:30:03,409 original films were much clearer you 749 00:30:07,419 --> 00:30:04,820 could see the colors much more brightly 750 00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:07,429 what he had sent originally I think were 751 00:30:11,260 --> 00:30:09,110 he'd run the eight millimeter film 752 00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:11,270 through a little film display with a 753 00:30:15,130 --> 00:30:12,799 little monitor on it where you're like a 754 00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:15,140 splicing machine of editing machine and 755 00:30:19,419 --> 00:30:17,990 was taking images off of that so I had 756 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:19,429 to try to do a little bit of work to 757 00:30:22,690 --> 00:30:21,289 enhance them presuming the background 758 00:30:24,460 --> 00:30:22,700 would be dark allowed you to kind of 759 00:30:26,260 --> 00:30:24,470 pick out colors from the surrounding 760 00:30:28,299 --> 00:30:26,270 background so you're hopefully left with 761 00:30:31,090 --> 00:30:28,309 what's only produced by the objects 762 00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:31,100 themselves but there's enough detail in 763 00:30:37,029 --> 00:30:34,159 there to tell you there's some whatever 764 00:30:40,270 --> 00:30:37,039 they were strange things flying out of 765 00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:40,280 there were they alien I don't know were 766 00:30:43,930 --> 00:30:42,380 they Air Force I don't know I mean I 767 00:30:46,029 --> 00:30:43,940 talked to some other people who'd been 768 00:30:47,980 --> 00:30:46,039 in the military before one guy had been 769 00:30:49,450 --> 00:30:47,990 some intelligence work and he said well 770 00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:49,460 usually you look at the response if 771 00:30:54,549 --> 00:30:50,510 somebody comes to you and tells you 772 00:30:56,770 --> 00:30:54,559 there's a potential threat you ask 773 00:30:58,810 --> 00:30:56,780 questions and you go out to see what the 774 00:31:00,130 --> 00:30:58,820 threat is you don't turn around and try 775 00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:00,140 to drill the guy who's telling you 776 00:31:04,539 --> 00:31:02,480 unless you know what's going on and he 777 00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:04,549 wasn't supposed to see it and that seems 778 00:31:08,950 --> 00:31:06,590 to be the 779 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:08,960 all things in my my opinion at this 780 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:11,210 point are seemed to indicate that 781 00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:13,730 whatever was out oh and the other point 782 00:31:17,289 --> 00:31:15,440 too was that was made to me by one guy 783 00:31:20,110 --> 00:31:17,299 was these this is inside the double 784 00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:20,120 perimeter fence where they're supposedly 785 00:31:23,140 --> 00:31:21,350 nuclear materials 786 00:31:25,899 --> 00:31:23,150 Ernest Edwards the first person that 787 00:31:28,299 --> 00:31:25,909 Paul talked to was at the time the major 788 00:31:31,210 --> 00:31:28,309 he was later on a lieutenant-colonel I 789 00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:31,220 think or a colonel but at the time he 790 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:32,990 was in charge of the guards who were 791 00:31:37,779 --> 00:31:35,570 inside him patrolled inside the fence 792 00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:37,789 those were apparently Air Force guards 793 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:39,440 they weren't Sandia security guards who 794 00:31:44,110 --> 00:31:40,730 patrolled outside the fence 795 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:44,120 and the point would be that if something 796 00:31:50,350 --> 00:31:47,570 was going on what I was told by an 797 00:31:51,669 --> 00:31:50,360 acquaintance of mine was you tell the 798 00:31:53,980 --> 00:31:51,679 guards what's going on say they don't 799 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:53,990 shoot somebody because if they don't 800 00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:54,770 know what's happening 801 00:31:59,560 --> 00:31:56,720 somebody's gonna pop off a shot 802 00:32:01,480 --> 00:31:59,570 accidentally you best tell them whatever 803 00:32:03,870 --> 00:32:01,490 you need to tell them to be sure they 804 00:32:07,870 --> 00:32:03,880 don't open up and shoot the wrong person 805 00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:07,880 that that's kind of logical to me and so 806 00:32:11,860 --> 00:32:10,159 my presumption would be unless there was 807 00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:11,870 some way when the things are coming in 808 00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:14,000 or when they're leaving unless you're 809 00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:15,710 call a meeting get all the guards inside 810 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:17,600 for a few minutes you know like maybe 811 00:32:21,399 --> 00:32:19,370 they do out at area 51 when you're not 812 00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:21,409 supposed to see something outside but 813 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:24,049 unless something like that happened the 814 00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:26,090 fact that it was that point that there 815 00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:28,640 was no the guards there was no alarms 816 00:32:32,110 --> 00:32:29,809 went off I mean that was one of the 817 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:32,120 things Paul described it was him 818 00:32:36,370 --> 00:32:34,700 realizing nobody's no guards would come 819 00:32:38,740 --> 00:32:36,380 no nothing's happening there's no alarms 820 00:32:40,539 --> 00:32:38,750 out there so maybe whoever's out there 821 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:40,549 maybe they don't even know these things 822 00:32:44,409 --> 00:32:43,130 are coming and going that's part of the 823 00:32:45,789 --> 00:32:44,419 reason that he finally picked up the 824 00:32:46,990 --> 00:32:45,799 phone and called Ernest Edwards because 825 00:32:49,330 --> 00:32:47,000 he wanted to talk to him about the 826 00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:49,340 intrusions that he'd been seeing out 827 00:32:53,380 --> 00:32:51,200 there and of course that got all of this 828 00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:53,390 all the rest of this is history but 829 00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:55,279 subsequently after he called and talked 830 00:32:59,080 --> 00:32:57,320 to Richard Doty and had Ernest Edwards 831 00:33:02,019 --> 00:32:59,090 and they knew Paul was still in touch 832 00:33:03,639 --> 00:33:02,029 with a pro at the time and I believe I'm 833 00:33:06,730 --> 00:33:03,649 fairly certain was sending them kind of 834 00:33:09,250 --> 00:33:06,740 updates on what was going on but 835 00:33:13,210 --> 00:33:09,260 somewhere along the way he either began 836 00:33:14,620 --> 00:33:13,220 to not quite trust Dodi if was I the air 837 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:14,630 force because I don't think he liked 838 00:33:17,919 --> 00:33:16,490 whoa you know there was no response and 839 00:33:19,389 --> 00:33:17,929 what was happening it's not what he 840 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:19,399 expected he began to contact other 841 00:33:22,090 --> 00:33:20,450 people and maybe loss 842 00:33:24,970 --> 00:33:22,100 and calling some people in Washington 843 00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:24,980 and that may have been you know the 844 00:33:28,450 --> 00:33:26,000 straw that broke the camel's back 845 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:28,460 because it was around the middle of 1980 846 00:33:33,370 --> 00:33:31,370 when you suddenly begin to hear well you 847 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:33,380 see dodi's name popping up in documents 848 00:33:36,730 --> 00:33:34,850 and letters to a pro other things 849 00:33:39,070 --> 00:33:36,740 happening people begin to hear about it 850 00:33:42,010 --> 00:33:39,080 and and some of the information actually 851 00:33:43,690 --> 00:33:42,020 was leaked out of a pro who had hoped to 852 00:33:45,190 --> 00:33:43,700 sit on it I guess they if it wasn't 853 00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:45,200 something they could actually verify for 854 00:33:48,910 --> 00:33:46,880 themselves they didn't normally release 855 00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:48,920 it but somebody apparently released some 856 00:33:53,230 --> 00:33:50,480 of that information there the wets a 857 00:33:55,230 --> 00:33:53,240 letter if anybody looks and what that is 858 00:33:58,180 --> 00:33:55,240 and that's actually to my knowledge 859 00:34:00,370 --> 00:33:58,190 that's the first place Dodi's name even 860 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:00,380 though it was spelled DoD why that's the 861 00:34:04,750 --> 00:34:02,450 first place dodi's name appeared and of 862 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:04,760 course bill more later on said Richard 863 00:34:10,090 --> 00:34:07,010 Doty wrote it to a pro as bait so you 864 00:34:13,870 --> 00:34:10,100 begin to see some real machinations 865 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:13,880 going on of trying to either draw people 866 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:15,650 to Doty maybe so he can tell them 867 00:34:21,850 --> 00:34:17,810 whatever he wants to tell them or in 868 00:34:24,030 --> 00:34:21,860 some way the airforce begins to put out 869 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:24,040 information that either makes Benowitz 870 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:27,170 look a little bit more unhinged or 871 00:34:31,210 --> 00:34:29,450 whatever the rationale was at that point 872 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:31,220 I guess you need to you need to be in 873 00:34:33,850 --> 00:34:32,450 there to be able to manage it that 874 00:34:36,970 --> 00:34:33,860 seemed to be what was going on it was 875 00:34:39,370 --> 00:34:36,980 later on the whole story of the computer 876 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:39,380 which you know Greg Bishop claims that 877 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:40,970 Bill Moore I believe I had this right 878 00:34:45,850 --> 00:34:43,010 that Bill Moore said that the Air Force 879 00:34:47,770 --> 00:34:45,860 had gotten Hynek to deliver the computer 880 00:34:50,740 --> 00:34:47,780 to Paul bennewitz which then later Paul 881 00:34:53,050 --> 00:34:50,750 supposedly communicating with aliens and 882 00:34:55,060 --> 00:34:53,060 all those things that would definitely 883 00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:55,070 make Paul sound like he'd gone off the 884 00:34:59,410 --> 00:34:58,010 deep end and I got into it at the same 885 00:35:01,990 --> 00:34:59,420 time you know when I I don't even 886 00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:02,000 remember why I first called Paul but by 887 00:35:06,940 --> 00:35:04,640 that time in the mid-1980s and after 83 888 00:35:09,970 --> 00:35:06,950 and 84 everything anyone heard about 889 00:35:11,950 --> 00:35:09,980 Paul was all of this Dulce aliens 890 00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:11,960 beaming him with you know that kind of 891 00:35:15,820 --> 00:35:13,520 thing I don't know whether the whole 892 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:15,830 idea of the tin for tinfoil caps 893 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:17,930 originated with Paul but there's a lot 894 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:19,130 of things that Paul had written about 895 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:21,050 with a Myrna Hansen and some of the 896 00:35:26,110 --> 00:35:24,410 things when what's-his-name loop Spiegel 897 00:35:29,020 --> 00:35:26,120 or whoever was down there that sound 898 00:35:30,910 --> 00:35:29,030 like it but that's why when I first Paul 899 00:35:32,740 --> 00:35:30,920 call excuse me when I first called Paul 900 00:35:34,180 --> 00:35:32,750 I had no idea of the early films he got 901 00:35:37,180 --> 00:35:34,190 you know he was telling 902 00:35:38,849 --> 00:35:37,190 all of the strange things about aliens 903 00:35:41,020 --> 00:35:38,859 and whatnot and I'm thinking to myself 904 00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:41,030 somebody call the Air Force with this 905 00:35:45,250 --> 00:35:42,800 information they would have said thanks 906 00:35:48,309 --> 00:35:45,260 called MUFON and hung up on him 907 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:48,319 so I finally asked him I said well what 908 00:35:53,230 --> 00:35:50,450 was it that made you first contact the 909 00:35:56,050 --> 00:35:53,240 Air Force or call the base he was oh it 910 00:35:58,690 --> 00:35:56,060 was the film's back in and I'm like what 911 00:36:02,559 --> 00:35:58,700 you know what what film is he talking 912 00:36:04,270 --> 00:36:02,569 about and then all this free prior story 913 00:36:06,730 --> 00:36:04,280 comes out all of this stuff that had 914 00:36:09,130 --> 00:36:06,740 been going on long before any of this 915 00:36:11,220 --> 00:36:09,140 and you begin to realize holy cow when I 916 00:36:13,569 --> 00:36:11,230 first saw that he sent me a box of 917 00:36:15,339 --> 00:36:13,579 eight-by-tens and more of the images and 918 00:36:16,690 --> 00:36:15,349 actually had that little Polaroid stuck 919 00:36:19,930 --> 00:36:16,700 in there so I had to be careful sending 920 00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:19,940 it back but um when I saw that box I 921 00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:22,250 knew you know this these were not just 922 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:24,710 little lights whatever he got in boy 923 00:36:30,010 --> 00:36:26,930 wouldn't I love to have seen the still 924 00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:30,020 shots without 215 millimeter lens and 925 00:36:35,770 --> 00:36:32,510 because to me this is the combination of 926 00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:35,780 still shots make it blow up so the you 927 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:37,910 know those things close-ups the film 928 00:36:43,059 --> 00:36:40,930 that goes along with what you're seeing 929 00:36:46,329 --> 00:36:43,069 if we could get our hands on that 930 00:36:48,430 --> 00:36:46,339 material now I years later after he had 931 00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:48,440 kind of cut everyone off I even wrote a 932 00:36:52,030 --> 00:36:50,480 letter to his wife and said if you still 933 00:36:55,780 --> 00:36:52,040 have those pictures please lock them 934 00:36:57,730 --> 00:36:55,790 away yes sorry to interrupt you Chris 935 00:37:00,069 --> 00:36:57,740 but um while we're touching on this 936 00:37:02,349 --> 00:37:00,079 right now do you think that these things 937 00:37:05,140 --> 00:37:02,359 still exist do you think they're in file 938 00:37:12,220 --> 00:37:05,150 cabinet somewhere the film's the film's 939 00:37:14,620 --> 00:37:12,230 picture ourselves there's a part of me 940 00:37:15,730 --> 00:37:14,630 well there was a time when I talked to 941 00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:15,740 Paul when he was having the film's 942 00:37:19,150 --> 00:37:17,119 developed and he of course had made the 943 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:19,160 point that when he had taking the film's 944 00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:20,450 down to have them developed in a place 945 00:37:25,180 --> 00:37:22,640 in town he sometimes suspected that he 946 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:25,190 didn't get back the whole film pieces of 947 00:37:31,390 --> 00:37:29,930 it were gone but you know depending on 948 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:31,400 how long he waited I know he didn't get 949 00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:32,690 the films developed right after he took 950 00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:34,400 them because he still had some footage 951 00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:36,560 from back in this you know going up to 952 00:37:41,140 --> 00:37:39,680 Dulce and whatnot so nobody should have 953 00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:41,150 been getting those films unless he had 954 00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:42,470 already called the Air Force so I don't 955 00:37:45,010 --> 00:37:43,910 believe and he couldn't have called the 956 00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:45,020 Air Force if he hadn't already had the 957 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:47,510 film's to examine himself so some of the 958 00:37:50,079 --> 00:37:48,170 earlier film 959 00:37:53,140 --> 00:37:50,089 I think would have been intact at least 960 00:37:54,819 --> 00:37:53,150 as far as being a complete film but 961 00:37:56,650 --> 00:37:54,829 whether he locked them up and is safe 962 00:37:59,079 --> 00:37:56,660 for whether his wife had them I would 963 00:38:02,140 --> 00:37:59,089 have hoped he kept them you know there's 964 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:02,150 you hear talk about you know some of the 965 00:38:04,660 --> 00:38:03,530 films that he might have eight 966 00:38:09,220 --> 00:38:04,670 millimeter films that he had kept at 967 00:38:11,890 --> 00:38:09,230 Thunder scientific you know the paranoid 968 00:38:12,970 --> 00:38:11,900 side of me would say if I was the Air 969 00:38:17,170 --> 00:38:12,980 Force I would have made those films 970 00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:17,180 disappear one way or the other in Greg 971 00:38:22,410 --> 00:38:19,910 bishops book when he talks about when 972 00:38:24,849 --> 00:38:22,420 Miller and Dodi went up to see Paul 973 00:38:26,910 --> 00:38:24,859 implying that at some point Dodi had 974 00:38:29,170 --> 00:38:26,920 either a small camera on him or was 975 00:38:30,490 --> 00:38:29,180 potentially filming the house or whatnot 976 00:38:34,089 --> 00:38:30,500 in there of course later on you hear the 977 00:38:35,740 --> 00:38:34,099 stories of um the guys from Kirtland 978 00:38:38,220 --> 00:38:35,750 going into his house and looking at his 979 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:38,230 gear a lot of this was in bishops book 980 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:40,970 which I highly highly recommend actually 981 00:38:46,030 --> 00:38:43,970 I mean he starts later than I start in 982 00:38:47,530 --> 00:38:46,040 my book I mean with the films but Greg 983 00:38:49,150 --> 00:38:47,540 Bishop found put some brilliant from 984 00:38:51,190 --> 00:38:49,160 interesting information out there but 985 00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:51,200 the idea that people might go into 986 00:38:57,730 --> 00:38:55,569 Paul's house to look at his equipment 987 00:38:59,200 --> 00:38:57,740 certainly opens up the can of worms 988 00:39:01,599 --> 00:38:59,210 possibility that they were going and 989 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:01,609 looking for just more than just that so 990 00:39:05,380 --> 00:39:03,290 I don't know I don't know I would have I 991 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:05,390 tried to talk to his sons one time and I 992 00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:06,530 can understand you know if you've got 993 00:39:10,839 --> 00:39:09,260 contracts you got yeah there's money to 994 00:39:12,460 --> 00:39:10,849 be considered that if they have no 995 00:39:14,589 --> 00:39:12,470 interest in what Paul was doing then why 996 00:39:17,230 --> 00:39:14,599 should they worry they don't really talk 997 00:39:19,630 --> 00:39:17,240 to anybody I guess as far as I know but 998 00:39:22,170 --> 00:39:19,640 I can just pray that those films would 999 00:39:25,690 --> 00:39:22,180 be somewhere it's like I've told ray 1000 00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:25,700 damn it get a digitizer digitize the 1001 00:39:28,450 --> 00:39:27,470 films then you can play them forward and 1002 00:39:30,490 --> 00:39:28,460 backward you can do whatever you want 1003 00:39:32,710 --> 00:39:30,500 you don't have to touch the original but 1004 00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:32,720 if you get it on digital format then you 1005 00:39:37,089 --> 00:39:35,089 can do a whole lot with it but but I 1006 00:39:41,470 --> 00:39:37,099 would hope Paul's stuff is still 1007 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:41,480 available but is it I have no idea go 1008 00:39:49,150 --> 00:39:43,730 ahead I'm sorry no did Bill Moore have 1009 00:39:50,799 --> 00:39:49,160 any any contact with bennewitz there is 1010 00:39:53,470 --> 00:39:50,809 a reason I'm bringing up bill bill Moore 1011 00:39:56,170 --> 00:39:53,480 oh yeah oh yeah 1012 00:39:58,950 --> 00:39:56,180 it's my gut feeling and this is just 1013 00:40:01,350 --> 00:39:58,960 mine I can't prove this to anybody 1014 00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:01,360 but when I was working at you know yes 1015 00:40:06,030 --> 00:40:03,250 bill supposedly and he's come out and 1016 00:40:08,580 --> 00:40:06,040 admitted all of this as well that um he 1017 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:08,590 was in essence recruited by Richard Doty 1018 00:40:13,110 --> 00:40:10,810 or someone above Richard Doty who then 1019 00:40:15,540 --> 00:40:13,120 put him in touch with Richard Doty to 1020 00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:15,550 befriend Benowitz and kind of report 1021 00:40:20,670 --> 00:40:17,140 back on whatever bennewitz was either 1022 00:40:22,890 --> 00:40:20,680 doing or who he was talking to there's a 1023 00:40:24,060 --> 00:40:22,900 lot of documentation about that bill has 1024 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:24,070 written himself and of course in his 1025 00:40:30,030 --> 00:40:28,090 famous speech in Las Vegas where he kind 1026 00:40:32,790 --> 00:40:30,040 of revealed all of this he admitted to 1027 00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:32,800 it that he'd kind of been in working 1028 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:36,160 with Air Force I doe T so to speak to uh 1029 00:40:45,060 --> 00:40:40,090 to help spy I guess would be the word on 1030 00:40:48,810 --> 00:40:45,070 Paul and what Paul was doing bill story 1031 00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:48,820 was he was approached by someone when he 1032 00:40:53,010 --> 00:40:51,040 was in Albuquerque he was I think on his 1033 00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:53,020 book tour at the time and he was 1034 00:40:57,270 --> 00:40:54,940 approached by someone in Albuquerque he 1035 00:40:58,590 --> 00:40:57,280 had had some odd calls prior to that but 1036 00:41:02,460 --> 00:40:58,600 in Albuquerque he'd got another call 1037 00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:02,470 somebody approached him and it was later 1038 00:41:05,970 --> 00:41:04,510 and arranged to talk to him and said 1039 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:05,980 then they'd meet up again and wanted to 1040 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:07,570 recruit bill for whatever reason you're 1041 00:41:12,180 --> 00:41:09,850 the only man we know who takes this 1042 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:12,190 seriously or something to this effect so 1043 00:41:15,630 --> 00:41:14,170 it seems very innocent that here's bill 1044 00:41:17,070 --> 00:41:15,640 he's been on these talk shows and he 1045 00:41:21,390 --> 00:41:17,080 seems innocent and now they're coming to 1046 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:21,400 recruit him ed plausible for all those 1047 00:41:25,650 --> 00:41:23,650 years the decades you know I thought 1048 00:41:27,950 --> 00:41:25,660 okay well that's whatever and Bill's 1049 00:41:30,990 --> 00:41:27,960 story was if he says no he gets nothing 1050 00:41:33,030 --> 00:41:31,000 if he says okay then at least he has his 1051 00:41:35,250 --> 00:41:33,040 foot in the door you know and that's a 1052 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:35,260 deal with the devil that many of us 1053 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:37,450 probably would have decided okay I'll do 1054 00:41:40,830 --> 00:41:39,370 what I can you know I'll take it because 1055 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:40,840 at least you have a chance to find out 1056 00:41:44,460 --> 00:41:42,370 something so it's that part of its 1057 00:41:47,220 --> 00:41:44,470 obviously plausible I suppose you could 1058 00:41:48,660 --> 00:41:47,230 say I mean I never faulted Bill for for 1059 00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:48,670 doing it if you're in if you're a writer 1060 00:41:55,590 --> 00:41:50,710 and you're into investigating you take 1061 00:41:57,450 --> 00:41:55,600 that chance me now when I was working on 1062 00:42:00,210 --> 00:41:57,460 the book and I was trying to get the 1063 00:42:02,460 --> 00:42:00,220 chronology correct the dates when did 1064 00:42:05,820 --> 00:42:02,470 this person first do this and do that in 1065 00:42:09,570 --> 00:42:05,830 the other and then it got to the point 1066 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:09,580 that some odd timing things began to 1067 00:42:17,070 --> 00:42:14,890 show up that to me had bill getting in 1068 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:17,080 to me involved with a pro rather the Oh 1069 00:42:21,150 --> 00:42:19,210 getting involved with a pro and becoming 1070 00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:21,160 kind of like their head of Special 1071 00:42:28,410 --> 00:42:26,260 Investigations perfectly positioned so 1072 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:28,420 that when the Wetzel letter that he 1073 00:42:34,830 --> 00:42:31,690 later says Doty wrote as bait would get 1074 00:42:37,020 --> 00:42:34,840 to a pro and be handed right to bill I'm 1075 00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:37,030 like there's a cool that could have been 1076 00:42:42,180 --> 00:42:39,760 a coincidence he's got Dodi's name in it 1077 00:42:44,910 --> 00:42:42,190 his job was supposedly to be the head of 1078 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:44,920 like Special Investigations simplest 1079 00:42:48,780 --> 00:42:47,170 thing to do would be what well I guess I 1080 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:48,790 did and I'm sure many others did years 1081 00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:50,170 ago right you just pick up Kirtland and 1082 00:42:55,950 --> 00:42:52,510 you ask is there a mr. Doty 1083 00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:55,960 and just see if the thing pans out but 1084 00:43:00,180 --> 00:42:58,240 bill now keep in mind that would have 1085 00:43:02,940 --> 00:43:00,190 put bill in possession of a letter with 1086 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:02,950 Dodi's name in it explaining some damned 1087 00:43:08,130 --> 00:43:05,650 interesting goings-on at near Kirtland 1088 00:43:10,340 --> 00:43:08,140 and some you know some training area 1089 00:43:13,050 --> 00:43:10,350 stuff that Wetzel was involved in and 1090 00:43:14,910 --> 00:43:13,060 and I actually I spoke with Wetzel I 1091 00:43:17,250 --> 00:43:14,920 called his house and his mom said oh 1092 00:43:19,740 --> 00:43:17,260 he's that back yeah woke him up and and 1093 00:43:22,410 --> 00:43:19,750 he kind of backed up some of what was in 1094 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:22,420 the letter that that was sent but not 1095 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:26,170 all of it but needless to say when Bill 1096 00:43:29,010 --> 00:43:27,370 receives this letter that would have 1097 00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:29,020 been a perfect ploy for Bill to go and 1098 00:43:33,540 --> 00:43:30,880 happen to meet Dodi because Dodie's name 1099 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:33,550 is in it but bill claims he never 1100 00:43:39,060 --> 00:43:36,730 investigated it well I'm like wait a 1101 00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:39,070 minute you're sitting at a pro they just 1102 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:40,960 within a month or a few months earlier 1103 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:42,850 put you in charge of Special 1104 00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:43,690 Investigations 1105 00:43:47,850 --> 00:43:46,750 they know who Paul bennewitz is and he's 1106 00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:47,860 been telling them about strange 1107 00:43:52,530 --> 00:43:50,800 goings-on around Albuquerque you get 1108 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:52,540 this letter you hand it to your new bill 1109 00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:54,850 to Bill and it's got all this 1110 00:43:59,790 --> 00:43:57,010 information in it and it mentions this 1111 00:44:04,290 --> 00:43:59,800 guy Doty who supposedly knows about this 1112 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:04,300 and you never check it out but then 1113 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:07,410 within a month or two months afterwards 1114 00:44:12,810 --> 00:44:11,050 by coincidence you get recruited and you 1115 00:44:14,970 --> 00:44:12,820 sit in a restaurant in Albuquerque and 1116 00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:14,980 the guy who's going to be your contact 1117 00:44:19,020 --> 00:44:17,470 Richard Doty this exact same guy whose 1118 00:44:21,630 --> 00:44:19,030 name is mentioned in the letter that was 1119 00:44:22,770 --> 00:44:21,640 sent to a pro and handed to you and now 1120 00:44:25,710 --> 00:44:22,780 all of a sudden that's the guy that you 1121 00:44:30,490 --> 00:44:29,140 the part that bothered me was if bill 1122 00:44:33,940 --> 00:44:30,500 had begun to check it out 1123 00:44:35,350 --> 00:44:33,950 and that then become recruited if he had 1124 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:35,360 gotten a letter and followed up and met 1125 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:38,210 Dodie through the letter then it becomes 1126 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:42,170 obvious evidence of military Air Force a 1127 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:45,530 of OSI recruiting somebody inside a UFO 1128 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:47,810 organization to spy on you follow gist 1129 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:50,290 or on Paul bennewitz in this case I 1130 00:44:54,970 --> 00:44:52,610 don't know that that would play very 1131 00:44:57,220 --> 00:44:54,980 well if that was the story that wait so 1132 00:45:00,130 --> 00:44:57,230 you've got actual military intelligence 1133 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:00,140 whoever people writing letters and 1134 00:45:05,050 --> 00:45:02,690 recruiting secretly inside you know spy 1135 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:05,060 versus spy kind of stuff almost and 1136 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:08,690 maybe that wasn't gonna look too great 1137 00:45:12,820 --> 00:45:10,970 and so it was easier to just then have 1138 00:45:14,350 --> 00:45:12,830 Bill innocently going on his book tour 1139 00:45:15,730 --> 00:45:14,360 and claimed he was getting these calls 1140 00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:15,740 from people and suddenly he's now in 1141 00:45:21,100 --> 00:45:18,110 Albuquerque and meets the guy and that's 1142 00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:21,110 how he was recruited I don't buy it 1143 00:45:26,770 --> 00:45:24,800 mmm I don't I think my my gut feelings 1144 00:45:29,010 --> 00:45:26,780 after all of that and I'd have to go 1145 00:45:33,130 --> 00:45:29,020 back and read all the details again is 1146 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:33,140 Bill was that was a known asset or some 1147 00:45:37,090 --> 00:45:35,090 sort all along I mean everybody always 1148 00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:37,100 says it's curious when somebody speaks 1149 00:45:42,010 --> 00:45:39,680 Russian you always wonder hmm where'd 1150 00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:42,020 they learn that you know not many people 1151 00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:43,280 learn it you think okay are they in the 1152 00:45:46,270 --> 00:45:44,960 intelligence I mean I've I've had that 1153 00:45:47,530 --> 00:45:46,280 case we're talking to a bartender II was 1154 00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:47,540 speaking Russian to somebody and I said 1155 00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:49,310 so what branch of the military 1156 00:45:53,350 --> 00:45:51,710 intelligence were you in Boeing he's 1157 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:53,360 like oh he was in such-and-such because 1158 00:45:57,550 --> 00:45:55,730 not many people speak it bill did so I 1159 00:46:00,700 --> 00:45:57,560 don't really under no I don't know it 1160 00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:00,710 just strikes me here's another telling 1161 00:46:07,540 --> 00:46:04,400 point in my opinion bill claims the 1162 00:46:09,340 --> 00:46:07,550 first person he met wasn't Richard Doty 1163 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:09,350 when he was in Albuquerque and arranged 1164 00:46:12,430 --> 00:46:10,970 to get a meeting some guy walked up to 1165 00:46:13,870 --> 00:46:12,440 his car I think wearing a red flower 1166 00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:13,880 handkerchief or something and that's how 1167 00:46:17,620 --> 00:46:15,710 bill knew who he was and that's the 1168 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:17,630 first guy who technically speaking or I 1169 00:46:24,670 --> 00:46:19,370 guess you'd say recruited him if I'm not 1170 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:24,680 mistaken there's other records that I 1171 00:46:28,930 --> 00:46:26,650 found and I mentioned it in the book 1172 00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:28,940 where Bill supposedly was cleaning the 1173 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:30,740 first meeting I think took place it at 1174 00:46:36,460 --> 00:46:33,530 McDonald's in Phoenix you're like wait 1175 00:46:38,109 --> 00:46:36,470 what then then now that now it's 1176 00:46:40,779 --> 00:46:38,119 supposedly taking place at this 1177 00:46:42,309 --> 00:46:40,789 in Albuquerque but needless to say but 1178 00:46:43,870 --> 00:46:42,319 after he then put get in touch with 1179 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:43,880 Richard Doty and when bill comes out in 1180 00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:46,249 Las Vegas and he says you know spills 1181 00:46:49,029 --> 00:46:47,839 the beam so to speak and owns up and 1182 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:49,039 says he was recruited to spy on 1183 00:46:53,799 --> 00:46:51,410 bennewitz blah blah blah he never ever 1184 00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:53,809 revealed who that original person was 1185 00:46:58,269 --> 00:46:56,240 who recruited him and then later 1186 00:47:01,539 --> 00:46:58,279 introduced him to Richard Doty I would 1187 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:01,549 assume that would be a more major figure 1188 00:47:04,690 --> 00:47:02,930 or at least somebody of note because 1189 00:47:06,579 --> 00:47:04,700 you'd be able to connect the dots and 1190 00:47:08,769 --> 00:47:06,589 maybe the threads and decide who's 1191 00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:08,779 running the show here I always thought 1192 00:47:12,730 --> 00:47:10,160 it was strange if Bill's gonna come out 1193 00:47:16,359 --> 00:47:12,740 and fall on you know the mercy of 1194 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:16,369 everybody to say that yeah he was trying 1195 00:47:20,170 --> 00:47:18,170 to do the right thing blah blah blah why 1196 00:47:21,579 --> 00:47:20,180 would you come out and just say 1197 00:47:23,410 --> 00:47:21,589 everything and if you were gonna if you 1198 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:23,420 were a ride or gonna write wouldn't this 1199 00:47:27,370 --> 00:47:26,210 be the perfect book now you've been on 1200 00:47:28,509 --> 00:47:27,380 the inside you have all these 1201 00:47:31,180 --> 00:47:28,519 connections bill could have written a 1202 00:47:33,279 --> 00:47:31,190 book and retired on that one but he 1203 00:47:34,749 --> 00:47:33,289 never wrote another book on it yeah he 1204 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:34,759 wrote both he wrote the books beforehand 1205 00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:36,410 and my understanding I don't know that 1206 00:47:39,489 --> 00:47:37,880 he's ever written especially on the UFO 1207 00:47:41,470 --> 00:47:39,499 subject but never wrote another book 1208 00:47:42,759 --> 00:47:41,480 most investigative journalists that get 1209 00:47:44,950 --> 00:47:42,769 involved of something they write a book 1210 00:47:48,039 --> 00:47:44,960 quick they get a book deal you come out 1211 00:47:51,249 --> 00:47:48,049 you name all the names done bill would 1212 00:47:53,229 --> 00:47:51,259 have been the hero of the day yeah but 1213 00:47:54,279 --> 00:47:53,239 he's never said much of anything except 1214 00:47:55,839 --> 00:47:54,289 mentioning that he was recruited by 1215 00:47:58,890 --> 00:47:55,849 Dodie and some other things he said 1216 00:48:01,479 --> 00:47:58,900 before that after the fact basically 1217 00:48:03,099 --> 00:48:01,489 disappeared by most accounts I guess 1218 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:03,109 he's been on a few things over the years 1219 00:48:06,970 --> 00:48:05,210 but yeah you never put a book on this 1220 00:48:09,069 --> 00:48:06,980 case and I don't understand why if 1221 00:48:12,190 --> 00:48:09,079 you're a writer this is like the gold 1222 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:12,200 mine so something tells me there was 1223 00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:15,890 more bill was not just an innocent party 1224 00:48:19,539 --> 00:48:18,079 i my opinion out there based on 1225 00:48:20,890 --> 00:48:19,549 everything that I found when I began to 1226 00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:20,900 look at it because it took me a lot 1227 00:48:24,729 --> 00:48:22,730 longer to dig up things that were said 1228 00:48:27,279 --> 00:48:24,739 by other people and things that bill 1229 00:48:29,859 --> 00:48:27,289 told other people and things that people 1230 00:48:32,259 --> 00:48:29,869 had said that bill had said and I began 1231 00:48:35,370 --> 00:48:32,269 to think it just done that up so but 1232 00:48:39,009 --> 00:48:35,380 that's history too so yeah well built 1233 00:48:41,229 --> 00:48:39,019 actually Greg Bishop and Bill bill more 1234 00:48:43,299 --> 00:48:41,239 still you know close friends and still 1235 00:48:47,019 --> 00:48:43,309 in touch with each other but you are 1236 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:47,029 actually you were actually at the 1989 1237 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:51,010 MUFON when he actually 1238 00:48:58,830 --> 00:48:54,130 talked about being engaged in 1239 00:49:01,740 --> 00:48:58,840 disinformation oh yeah yeah it was like 1240 00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:01,750 shrift I was actually standing you know 1241 00:49:05,970 --> 00:49:04,150 bill had not been seen all day no it 1242 00:49:07,650 --> 00:49:05,980 didn't you know can you can imagine they 1243 00:49:09,570 --> 00:49:07,660 we knew he was gonna be the last speaker 1244 00:49:13,050 --> 00:49:09,580 when that usually is a sign of something 1245 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:13,060 but nobody had really seen him and I was 1246 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:15,490 standing outside the door waiting to go 1247 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:17,410 in and sit down and was standing with 1248 00:49:23,490 --> 00:49:20,410 Linda Howe at the time and she was a 1249 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:23,500 little perturbed at bill because the 1250 00:49:27,540 --> 00:49:25,450 story was I didn't know this for a fact 1251 00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:27,550 but story was that bill had made some 1252 00:49:33,450 --> 00:49:31,180 comment to to someone else that Linda 1253 00:49:36,780 --> 00:49:33,460 and another guy I don't recall his name 1254 00:49:39,420 --> 00:49:36,790 were basically useful idiots in this 1255 00:49:41,550 --> 00:49:39,430 whole scenario because Linda was one of 1256 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:41,560 the early people involved in with Doty 1257 00:49:45,330 --> 00:49:43,570 and whatnot as where I yeah Linda how 1258 00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:45,340 didn't like that and not that I blame 1259 00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:45,730 her 1260 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:48,400 but so we're standing out front waiting 1261 00:49:53,370 --> 00:49:51,250 to go in and here comes bill and Linda 1262 00:49:55,260 --> 00:49:53,380 basically confronted him in a way it 1263 00:49:58,800 --> 00:49:55,270 wasn't nothing bad I mean it was I don't 1264 00:50:00,120 --> 00:49:58,810 blame her and Bill stood his ground she 1265 00:50:04,350 --> 00:50:00,130 stood her ground I was kind of standing 1266 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:04,360 there and at that time you know I been 1267 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:06,850 around live longer and seen a few things 1268 00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:10,210 and there were aspects of Bill that you 1269 00:50:14,010 --> 00:50:12,160 had to admire I mean the guy seemed to 1270 00:50:17,940 --> 00:50:14,020 really know a lot of people and have 1271 00:50:19,350 --> 00:50:17,950 been a lot of places and and we just I 1272 00:50:21,150 --> 00:50:19,360 didn't know him personally really well I 1273 00:50:23,490 --> 00:50:21,160 mean I knew him by face and he'd me and 1274 00:50:24,930 --> 00:50:23,500 I just said yeah I you know there's to 1275 00:50:27,690 --> 00:50:24,940 some extent I agree with him that I 1276 00:50:30,810 --> 00:50:27,700 think his his point at the time was that 1277 00:50:33,450 --> 00:50:30,820 the real work of ufology really doesn't 1278 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:33,460 belong in the hands of the the beanie 1279 00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:35,170 wearing tights head out there or 1280 00:50:38,310 --> 00:50:36,880 something but anyway so then we went 1281 00:50:39,930 --> 00:50:38,320 inside and I was sitting next to Linda 1282 00:50:41,490 --> 00:50:39,940 Howell at the time when bill was giving 1283 00:50:43,170 --> 00:50:41,500 a speech and I think Stan Friedman was 1284 00:50:45,090 --> 00:50:43,180 sitting at the very front because he had 1285 00:50:48,750 --> 00:50:45,100 been one of the guys who believed worked 1286 00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:48,760 closely with bill early on and then bill 1287 00:50:54,690 --> 00:50:51,310 gives his whole speech and I remembered 1288 00:50:56,370 --> 00:50:54,700 by that time I was I knew and when bill 1289 00:50:58,680 --> 00:50:56,380 finally said something to the effect of 1290 00:51:00,390 --> 00:50:58,690 it all began 10 years ago with a man 1291 00:51:03,210 --> 00:51:00,400 named Paul bennewitz and I felt 1292 00:51:04,890 --> 00:51:03,220 vindicated I mean that sounds odd to say 1293 00:51:07,350 --> 00:51:04,900 but I did feel I remember think 1294 00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:07,360 you know I was right about that much at 1295 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:11,110 least that Paul was the impetus for all 1296 00:51:17,370 --> 00:51:13,570 of this other bullcrap that came out 1297 00:51:19,740 --> 00:51:17,380 afterwards mj-12 the dulce I think 1298 00:51:21,390 --> 00:51:19,750 stories were just you know a red herring 1299 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:21,400 to get people off of Albuquerque and 1300 00:51:26,190 --> 00:51:24,730 looking somewhere else but we sat there 1301 00:51:29,010 --> 00:51:26,200 and watched the whole thing bill went 1302 00:51:30,930 --> 00:51:29,020 through the entire story 1303 00:51:34,830 --> 00:51:30,940 I'm sure transcripts are out on the 1304 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:34,840 internet and when he finished boom he 1305 00:51:38,430 --> 00:51:36,370 bolted out the mount I mean to make it 1306 00:51:40,470 --> 00:51:38,440 sound that bad but probably for a good 1307 00:51:43,470 --> 00:51:40,480 reason he went out the door right behind 1308 00:51:48,090 --> 00:51:43,480 and didn't walk out and the audience and 1309 00:51:50,310 --> 00:51:48,100 talk to anyone I I do remember to his 1310 00:51:53,130 --> 00:51:50,320 credit or whatever you want to call it I 1311 00:51:55,470 --> 00:51:53,140 do remember when bill left everybody 1312 00:51:58,110 --> 00:51:55,480 began to stand up and walk out seeing 1313 00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:58,120 Stan Freedman still sitting in his chair 1314 00:52:02,460 --> 00:51:59,680 just staring forward because I don't 1315 00:52:04,050 --> 00:52:02,470 think he had I honestly don't think I 1316 00:52:09,090 --> 00:52:04,060 mean I always I have a lot of respect 1317 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:09,100 for Stan I just I don't think he had a 1318 00:52:12,530 --> 00:52:10,450 clue but I remember just seeing the 1319 00:52:15,210 --> 00:52:12,540 picture the guy's sitting there and 1320 00:52:16,980 --> 00:52:15,220 feeling I don't I really felt for him on 1321 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:16,990 that case but you can probably explain 1322 00:52:21,210 --> 00:52:18,610 that even more via and already done it 1323 00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:21,220 but yeah bill was there and people began 1324 00:52:25,980 --> 00:52:23,040 to shout when he began to admit to 1325 00:52:29,070 --> 00:52:25,990 having known what was going on and 1326 00:52:30,990 --> 00:52:29,080 basically falling in with AFOs I - you 1327 00:52:33,210 --> 00:52:31,000 know working with Dodi and and of course 1328 00:52:35,070 --> 00:52:33,220 everybody assumes and it's rightfully so 1329 00:52:38,910 --> 00:52:35,080 that Bill's gonna present it in a way 1330 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:38,920 that at least you know makes him look I 1331 00:52:43,230 --> 00:52:41,890 guess relatively speaking as good as he 1332 00:52:44,910 --> 00:52:43,240 could you know had everything all that 1333 00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:44,920 loose ends sewn up so to speak 1334 00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:48,730 but um but I think most people knew at 1335 00:52:53,810 --> 00:52:51,040 that point bill was and I maybe that was 1336 00:52:58,290 --> 00:52:53,820 the whole goal - bill was pretty well 1337 00:53:00,420 --> 00:52:58,300 through as far as people opening up to 1338 00:53:02,790 --> 00:53:00,430 him on the youth illogical side of 1339 00:53:05,070 --> 00:53:02,800 things right now I think he did any more 1340 00:53:06,870 --> 00:53:05,080 talks after that one I don't think so 1341 00:53:09,150 --> 00:53:06,880 but if he if he would write a book on 1342 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:09,160 all of this I only talked to him a few 1343 00:53:12,850 --> 00:53:11,170 times and I think we exchanged a letter 1344 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:12,860 - here there 1345 00:53:17,380 --> 00:53:16,130 so obviously like in many cases you're 1346 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:17,390 left with questions that you can't have 1347 00:53:21,940 --> 00:53:19,330 answered and I just have to kind of 1348 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:21,950 deduce you know what's what some of 1349 00:53:26,109 --> 00:53:24,890 those answers may be but you know it 1350 00:53:28,060 --> 00:53:26,119 would be if you could get Greg Bishop 1351 00:53:31,930 --> 00:53:28,070 and bull more on that would be a really 1352 00:53:33,820 --> 00:53:31,940 a real show - watts yeah but anyway you 1353 00:53:35,470 --> 00:53:33,830 know and dodi talk to Greg Bishop if I'm 1354 00:53:38,260 --> 00:53:35,480 not mistaken when Greg Bishop was 1355 00:53:42,430 --> 00:53:38,270 working on his book in part because Greg 1356 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:42,440 was tight with bill and my impression 1357 00:53:51,570 --> 00:53:47,330 has been that if Doty thinks you won't 1358 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:51,580 call him out on things or Doty thinks 1359 00:53:55,780 --> 00:53:54,050 you're going to basically go along with 1360 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:55,790 him because here he is he's gonna sit 1361 00:53:58,870 --> 00:53:56,570 and talk to you 1362 00:54:03,250 --> 00:53:58,880 and rive around and help you out then 1363 00:54:07,950 --> 00:54:03,260 he'll talk but if you're gonna quiz him 1364 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:07,960 on facts or catch him on certain things 1365 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:09,890 then he won't talk to you that's why I 1366 00:54:13,660 --> 00:54:11,930 think you'll find him at least what I've 1367 00:54:15,930 --> 00:54:13,670 seen so far he's only in those shows 1368 00:54:19,660 --> 00:54:15,940 where he's kind of given free rein 1369 00:54:21,130 --> 00:54:19,670 nobody really grills him on how he got 1370 00:54:22,859 --> 00:54:21,140 into this or what went on or whatever 1371 00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:22,869 else he's just allowed to talk because 1372 00:54:26,830 --> 00:54:25,280 you know he's he's a character that you 1373 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:26,840 put his name on it like in the show 1374 00:54:33,250 --> 00:54:31,010 Mirage man which that was a 1375 00:54:34,330 --> 00:54:33,260 disappointment in my book but what I 1376 00:54:35,590 --> 00:54:34,340 thought was interesting is if you go 1377 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:35,600 look at the beginning of the show when 1378 00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:38,690 they have a little 1950's flying saucers 1379 00:54:43,230 --> 00:54:41,359 flitting around and you see that it's 1380 00:54:47,710 --> 00:54:43,240 called a perception management 1381 00:54:50,380 --> 00:54:47,720 production I thought I guess there's 1382 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:50,390 admitting something right up front but 1383 00:54:56,740 --> 00:54:52,490 but that you know so I don't know as far 1384 00:54:59,950 --> 00:54:56,750 as Jodi's concerned I guess he has his 1385 00:55:02,170 --> 00:54:59,960 own things to live down when the time 1386 00:55:03,430 --> 00:55:02,180 comes and as we all do but I haven't 1387 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:03,440 talked to him in ages I doubt I'll ever 1388 00:55:08,380 --> 00:55:05,930 talk to him again last few times we 1389 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:08,390 talked they didn't end well but I didn't 1390 00:55:13,780 --> 00:55:12,050 expect them to so whatever okay well 1391 00:55:15,550 --> 00:55:13,790 we're just about at the top of the hour 1392 00:55:18,790 --> 00:55:15,560 so just a couple of announcements first 1393 00:55:23,470 --> 00:55:18,800 of all Connie Willis runs a show called 1394 00:55:25,390 --> 00:55:23,480 blue rock radio and she runs a great 1395 00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:25,400 show she talks to people in ufology and 1396 00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:26,720 she was actually going to do this 1397 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:28,250 so I was having a little bit of 1398 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:31,490 laryngitis I'm okay now but she was 1399 00:55:35,490 --> 00:55:33,770 gonna you know I asked her to do the 1400 00:55:39,370 --> 00:55:35,500 show but she just was too busy tonight 1401 00:55:42,099 --> 00:55:39,380 so I also wanted to say that we are 1402 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:42,109 taking calls in the second part of the 1403 00:55:49,780 --> 00:55:47,090 show and that number is 603 967 403 oh 1404 00:55:54,270 --> 00:55:49,790 just a couple of other things I'm going 1405 00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:54,280 to be at the shag Harbor UFO conference 1406 00:55:57,310 --> 00:55:56,810 coming up at the just in a couple of 1407 00:55:59,500 --> 00:55:57,320 weeks 1408 00:56:01,450 --> 00:55:59,510 that's a 50th anniversary and there's 1409 00:56:04,210 --> 00:56:01,460 going to be some you know witnesses 1410 00:56:06,339 --> 00:56:04,220 actually that were there I'm going to be 1411 00:56:08,770 --> 00:56:06,349 talking with also Jordan Bonaparte and 1412 00:56:12,430 --> 00:56:08,780 I'm going to do a live show from there 1413 00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:12,440 so that's going to be on Saturday on the 1414 00:56:19,630 --> 00:56:16,130 September 30th from 6:00 to 7:00 now 1415 00:56:22,810 --> 00:56:19,640 that'll be up on YouTube and also it'll 1416 00:56:25,660 --> 00:56:22,820 be a podcast for members only 1417 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:25,670 so that would be coming out a few days 1418 00:56:29,830 --> 00:56:27,650 after that so you can look for it if you 1419 00:56:34,810 --> 00:56:29,840 want to watch it live from shag harbour 1420 00:56:38,820 --> 00:56:34,820 that is September 30th at 6:00 to 7:00 1421 00:56:41,230 --> 00:56:38,830 p.m. and it'll be right on YouTube so 1422 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:41,240 now that we're kind of going into the 1423 00:56:49,180 --> 00:56:45,410 second hour I wanted to ask you how did 1424 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:49,190 things such as mj-12 you mentioned there 1425 00:56:53,050 --> 00:56:50,570 was someone in the chat room right away 1426 00:56:55,450 --> 00:56:53,060 who said how did that possibly come out 1427 00:56:57,490 --> 00:56:55,460 of the Paul bennewitz case so can you 1428 00:57:00,910 --> 00:56:57,500 talk about that and then also Delsea - 1429 00:57:03,970 --> 00:57:00,920 all right there was an well the Dulce 1430 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:03,980 citrus started because as I said Paul 1431 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:05,210 had taken an interest in the cattle 1432 00:57:09,310 --> 00:57:07,490 mutilation aspect of things and had gone 1433 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:09,320 to an early FBI meeting or whatever 1434 00:57:16,060 --> 00:57:12,170 that's pretty well known in early parts 1435 00:57:18,490 --> 00:57:16,070 of 1979 and met Gabe Valdez and had gone 1436 00:57:21,420 --> 00:57:18,500 to drive around on a night ride with 1437 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:21,430 Gabe which of course Dulce is right at 1438 00:57:26,230 --> 00:57:24,530 like geology/geography is correct dose 1439 00:57:28,990 --> 00:57:26,240 he's kind of right at the base so to 1440 00:57:30,849 --> 00:57:29,000 speak of the Archuleta Mesa a lot of 1441 00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:30,859 that is inside the area there's that's 1442 00:57:35,230 --> 00:57:32,690 called the hickory Indian Reservation 1443 00:57:38,050 --> 00:57:35,240 which one of the things gave Valadez did 1444 00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:38,060 was you know patrol inside that area 1445 00:57:40,570 --> 00:57:39,200 and this was back in the day when all 1446 00:57:42,490 --> 00:57:40,580 the cattle mutilation things were going 1447 00:57:45,220 --> 00:57:42,500 on and a lot of people know a lot about 1448 00:57:47,590 --> 00:57:45,230 a lot more about that than I do but it 1449 00:57:49,090 --> 00:57:47,600 was Paul having ridden around that area 1450 00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:49,100 with Gabe Aldous and then taking that 1451 00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:50,690 Polaroid and seeing the little image in 1452 00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:53,690 it and then going back later on to I 1453 00:57:57,610 --> 00:57:55,730 think he maybe even camped out or stayed 1454 00:58:02,050 --> 00:57:57,620 overnight a few time excuse me a few 1455 00:58:06,670 --> 00:58:02,060 times here there but um dulce itself 1456 00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:06,680 maybe kind of a misnomer for what was 1457 00:58:09,790 --> 00:58:08,480 going on because of most of what I think 1458 00:58:11,770 --> 00:58:09,800 Paul was talking about were things that 1459 00:58:14,260 --> 00:58:11,780 he there thought might be happening on 1460 00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:14,270 the Mesa the are Selena may surround it 1461 00:58:18,550 --> 00:58:17,210 Dulce the little town itself may have 1462 00:58:20,230 --> 00:58:18,560 just been the point that everybody 1463 00:58:22,030 --> 00:58:20,240 thinks of when you're driving Tbilisi 1464 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:22,040 because that seemed to be a place that 1465 00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:24,170 had come up and eventually it came up in 1466 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:26,480 all sorts of other what I consider now 1467 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:29,450 the the myth of ufology as far as the 1468 00:58:33,250 --> 00:58:31,130 idea that there were alien bases 1469 00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:33,260 underground and you know whatnot there 1470 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:34,730 may have been some things underground up 1471 00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:36,290 there I mean I've had my own reasons to 1472 00:58:40,780 --> 00:58:38,480 think that the Air Force itself or 1473 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:40,790 whoever else may have actually been 1474 00:58:47,710 --> 00:58:44,330 doing some testing in the area but to my 1475 00:58:49,270 --> 00:58:47,720 knowledge nobody has ever actually seen 1476 00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:49,280 an underground base I mean Paul had 1477 00:58:53,470 --> 00:58:50,510 talked about some things people have 1478 00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:53,480 wandered all over that you know back in 1479 00:58:57,820 --> 00:58:56,000 the day looking for places Paul talked 1480 00:59:00,130 --> 00:58:57,830 about so but that's the whole thing 1481 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:00,140 about Dulce it was just paul had begun 1482 00:59:04,300 --> 00:59:02,330 to get interested in that and then later 1483 00:59:07,020 --> 00:59:04,310 on after all the stuff that he was doing 1484 00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:07,030 down in albuquerque began to take hold 1485 00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:09,170 he was talking to the Air Force about 1486 00:59:12,610 --> 00:59:11,090 Dulce and they put him on helicopters 1487 00:59:14,410 --> 00:59:12,620 even even Edwards had talked about this 1488 00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:14,420 and flew him back up there and flew him 1489 00:59:19,690 --> 00:59:16,910 around Dulce but I'm sure all of that is 1490 00:59:22,030 --> 00:59:19,700 just to get his attention back up there 1491 00:59:24,070 --> 00:59:22,040 where maybe they could control the 1492 00:59:25,210 --> 00:59:24,080 situation a little better and if he 1493 00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:25,220 thought there was something on the 1494 00:59:28,780 --> 00:59:26,960 ground they'd say oh really and maybe 1495 00:59:30,700 --> 00:59:28,790 there were stories supposedly of things 1496 00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:30,710 being planted to look suspicious down 1497 00:59:34,450 --> 00:59:32,570 there and so there were some things 1498 00:59:37,900 --> 00:59:34,460 going on around there but to my 1499 00:59:40,150 --> 00:59:37,910 knowledge what happened in Albuquerque 1500 00:59:42,130 --> 00:59:40,160 the Paul's films in Albuquerque and 1501 00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:42,140 things going on and the area of the 1502 00:59:47,710 --> 00:59:44,330 Indian Reservation and don't see all of 1503 00:59:50,530 --> 00:59:47,720 those teams I see us two separate 1504 00:59:51,579 --> 00:59:50,540 aspects two separate areas that Paul was 1505 00:59:53,349 --> 00:59:51,589 interested in 1506 00:59:55,359 --> 00:59:53,359 and the Dulcie one just became the 1507 00:59:57,279 --> 00:59:55,369 easier red herring you know diversion to 1508 00:59:58,959 --> 00:59:57,289 get him thinking talk do whatever they 1509 01:00:03,519 --> 00:59:58,969 can't fly him with helicopters up there 1510 01:00:06,459 --> 01:00:03,529 don't focus on Albuquerque but what was 1511 01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:06,469 the second question as well and oh there 1512 01:00:12,189 --> 01:00:09,529 was a document that came out and I don't 1513 01:00:16,749 --> 01:00:12,199 recall exactly where it came from to 1514 01:00:18,429 --> 01:00:16,759 begin with but it's the document that it 1515 01:00:20,949 --> 01:00:18,439 starts with what sounds like some 1516 01:00:22,929 --> 01:00:20,959 analysis of Benowitz his films like film 1517 01:00:25,229 --> 01:00:22,939 showing this item or the other film 1518 01:00:29,439 --> 01:00:25,239 showing some other item or other and 1519 01:00:30,989 --> 01:00:29,449 then below it comes across it begins 1520 01:00:34,209 --> 01:00:30,999 with a statement something the effect of 1521 01:00:37,660 --> 01:00:34,219 UFOs still being investigated by and 1522 01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:37,670 this is where if I'm not mistaken bill 1523 01:00:42,489 --> 01:00:40,130 supposedly bill Moore had changed some 1524 01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:42,499 part of this document to say NASA and I 1525 01:00:48,370 --> 01:00:44,410 believe originally said it said in essay 1526 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:48,380 but it also mentions that um that's his 1527 01:00:56,529 --> 01:00:52,130 cases that affect national security or 1528 01:00:59,079 --> 01:00:56,539 something like this our handle or 1529 01:01:01,209 --> 01:00:59,089 basically investigated by mj-12 and if 1530 01:01:02,739 --> 01:01:01,219 I'm not mistaken you have to be very 1531 01:01:05,410 --> 01:01:02,749 interesting it has to be you have to be 1532 01:01:09,039 --> 01:01:05,420 very curious because the spelling of it 1533 01:01:11,589 --> 01:01:09,049 matters it in this particular case it's 1534 01:01:14,229 --> 01:01:11,599 written out if I'm not mistaken MJ in 1535 01:01:16,239 --> 01:01:14,239 the word 12 I go into all of this in the 1536 01:01:18,489 --> 01:01:16,249 book because later on you'll find people 1537 01:01:22,689 --> 01:01:18,499 coming up with acronyms like majestic 12 1538 01:01:24,609 --> 01:01:22,699 or writing MJ number 12 but I believe 1539 01:01:26,109 --> 01:01:24,619 project names code name thing whatever 1540 01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:26,119 you might want to call it or typically 1541 01:01:30,999 --> 01:01:27,890 you're gonna write it the way it's 1542 01:01:34,089 --> 01:01:31,009 supposed to be but it also mentions 1543 01:01:36,910 --> 01:01:34,099 further contact you know further 1544 01:01:41,589 --> 01:01:36,920 information and it's where you first see 1545 01:01:43,569 --> 01:01:41,599 the names Miller slash Fugate so whoever 1546 01:01:45,309 --> 01:01:43,579 was writing this was dropping in some 1547 01:01:46,359 --> 01:01:45,319 names of people that probably would have 1548 01:01:46,630 --> 01:01:46,369 preferred not to have their names in 1549 01:01:50,679 --> 01:01:46,640 there 1550 01:01:53,559 --> 01:01:50,689 Miller presumably Jerry Miller Fugate 1551 01:01:57,299 --> 01:01:53,569 was the guy who was in charge of the 1552 01:01:59,410 --> 01:01:57,309 Starfire optical range he's the guy 1553 01:02:02,529 --> 01:01:59,420 scientists in charge of mirrors laser 1554 01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:02,539 imaging whatnot he's the person who in 1555 01:02:06,859 --> 01:02:04,890 great bishops book if I'm not mistaken 1556 01:02:08,420 --> 01:02:06,869 supposedly been ushered into Paula's 1557 01:02:10,249 --> 01:02:08,430 house one night real late when Paul was 1558 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:10,259 gone some people broke in and they took 1559 01:02:14,690 --> 01:02:12,690 a look at Paul's equipment that he was 1560 01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:14,700 kind of using to detect the signals for 1561 01:02:20,210 --> 01:02:17,970 the aliens and whatnot but Robert Fugate 1562 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:20,220 I looked into him this very interesting 1563 01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:22,650 character Jerry Miller has since retired 1564 01:02:28,849 --> 01:02:25,970 but the point to answer the question was 1565 01:02:31,870 --> 01:02:28,859 that's the first place anyone ever heard 1566 01:02:34,849 --> 01:02:31,880 of mj-12 most people think of mj-12 as 1567 01:02:37,069 --> 01:02:34,859 coming out in the slide film or whatever 1568 01:02:39,229 --> 01:02:37,079 that were somehow secretly sent to 1569 01:02:41,569 --> 01:02:39,239 Jamie's Shandra ray who was friends with 1570 01:02:43,099 --> 01:02:41,579 Bill Moore at the time and they had a 1571 01:02:45,410 --> 01:02:43,109 little dog and pony show of a 1572 01:02:46,849 --> 01:02:45,420 presentation claiming that there was 1573 01:02:48,829 --> 01:02:46,859 these copies of these documents or 1574 01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:48,839 whatnot that were mj-12 documents and 1575 01:02:55,039 --> 01:02:53,130 whatnot people seem to forget that that 1576 01:02:57,769 --> 01:02:55,049 was about if I'm not mistaken named in 1577 01:02:59,269 --> 01:02:57,779 two or three years after the first Paul 1578 01:03:02,120 --> 01:02:59,279 began to contact the air force and all 1579 01:03:03,739 --> 01:03:02,130 this stuff really began to churn when 1580 01:03:06,589 --> 01:03:03,749 this one document comes out and has 1581 01:03:10,039 --> 01:03:06,599 mj-12 written in it but nobody seems to 1582 01:03:12,009 --> 01:03:10,049 remember that document it's as though if 1583 01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:12,019 I'm not mistaken 1584 01:03:16,729 --> 01:03:14,910 I'm trying to recall but if I'm not 1585 01:03:19,519 --> 01:03:16,739 mistaken this may have been the document 1586 01:03:22,430 --> 01:03:19,529 that Richard Doty it was at LX if I'm 1587 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:22,440 not mistaken I have to go back and 1588 01:03:25,999 --> 01:03:24,210 double-check but supposedly bill may 1589 01:03:27,799 --> 01:03:26,009 have not given it to Paul room he think 1590 01:03:29,569 --> 01:03:27,809 there was some document that Doty gave 1591 01:03:31,279 --> 01:03:29,579 to bill and bill kind of thought maybe 1592 01:03:34,249 --> 01:03:31,289 he was supposed to slip it to Paul and 1593 01:03:36,140 --> 01:03:34,259 get Paul all churned up and maybe he 1594 01:03:38,299 --> 01:03:36,150 didn't do it but the point was here's 1595 01:03:40,670 --> 01:03:38,309 the document that names has this mj-12 1596 01:03:43,519 --> 01:03:40,680 that sums highly secretive group with 1597 01:03:45,979 --> 01:03:43,529 some control or interest in the subject 1598 01:03:48,019 --> 01:03:45,989 that comes out in relation to Paul 1599 01:03:50,989 --> 01:03:48,029 bennewitz because it mentions the films 1600 01:03:53,089 --> 01:03:50,999 that Paul had been in doing and it's 1601 01:03:54,349 --> 01:03:53,099 right in the midst of Bill of a bill 1602 01:03:57,680 --> 01:03:54,359 Moore and Richard Doty and all of this 1603 01:03:59,960 --> 01:03:57,690 stuff but it goes nowhere and then two 1604 01:04:01,970 --> 01:03:59,970 or three years later suddenly bills in 1605 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:01,980 with Jamie and Ray that producer out of 1606 01:04:05,690 --> 01:04:03,930 hell and they've got these pictures that 1607 01:04:08,049 --> 01:04:05,700 were supposedly sent to shandur a of 1608 01:04:11,029 --> 01:04:08,059 these documents in their mj-12 documents 1609 01:04:13,700 --> 01:04:11,039 and I'm like somebody hadn't planned on 1610 01:04:16,039 --> 01:04:13,710 that storyline so to speak getting out 1611 01:04:18,670 --> 01:04:16,049 and potentially I'd hoped that maybe 1612 01:04:20,380 --> 01:04:18,680 they'd get it to Paul perhaps 1613 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:20,390 then Paul would run with it and start 1614 01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:22,010 spreading the whole thing and when it 1615 01:04:26,230 --> 01:04:24,650 didn't happen somebody found another way 1616 01:04:28,450 --> 01:04:26,240 to get it out there but once again bill 1617 01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:28,460 Moore seemed to be center stage in both 1618 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:32,210 storylines but but that's why I don't 1619 01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:36,170 buy mj-12 at all first off you would 1620 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:38,210 need to put a legitimate project name if 1621 01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:39,770 you were Dodie if you were someone else 1622 01:04:45,550 --> 01:04:42,770 why would you put any kind of legitimate 1623 01:04:46,570 --> 01:04:45,560 highly secretive name of any group in a 1624 01:04:47,590 --> 01:04:46,580 document you're going to give to Paul 1625 01:04:50,710 --> 01:04:47,600 bennewitz you could have made up 1626 01:04:51,940 --> 01:04:50,720 anything so there may be some group out 1627 01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:51,950 there it wouldn't surprise me at all I 1628 01:04:56,380 --> 01:04:53,690 mean in fact if it makes some kind of 1629 01:04:57,940 --> 01:04:56,390 sense but I don't think of Tim j12 at 1630 01:04:59,890 --> 01:04:57,950 all and I think all the other acronyms 1631 01:05:01,540 --> 01:04:59,900 majestic 12 and everything people of 1632 01:05:04,990 --> 01:05:01,550 majority 12 whatever you've heard over 1633 01:05:07,030 --> 01:05:05,000 the years are just offshoots of this 1634 01:05:08,620 --> 01:05:07,040 something that came out in a document 1635 01:05:10,450 --> 01:05:08,630 that was supposedly supposed to go to 1636 01:05:12,580 --> 01:05:10,460 bennewitz or was intended to diffuse him 1637 01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:12,590 and they can run with it and spread it 1638 01:05:15,940 --> 01:05:14,330 around or something to that effect so I 1639 01:05:17,650 --> 01:05:15,950 don't I don't buy it 1640 01:05:20,740 --> 01:05:17,660 I mean it anymore at least at that point 1641 01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:20,750 I spent a lot of time on Aquarius that 1642 01:05:24,970 --> 01:05:23,450 wind nowhere either so anyway but that's 1643 01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:24,980 what I mean when I say there are still 1644 01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:26,690 aspects of things that people talk about 1645 01:05:31,620 --> 01:05:29,570 today's storylines that circulate out 1646 01:05:34,030 --> 01:05:31,630 there that people just don't realize 1647 01:05:35,770 --> 01:05:34,040 they originated with the case of this 1648 01:05:38,140 --> 01:05:35,780 man in Albuquerque who had gotten these 1649 01:05:39,550 --> 01:05:38,150 films the response was not let's see 1650 01:05:42,100 --> 01:05:39,560 what films you got the response was 1651 01:05:45,130 --> 01:05:42,110 let's squash this guy's credibility as 1652 01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:45,140 fast as we can and throw so much alien 1653 01:05:51,010 --> 01:05:47,090 stuff out there that people won't know 1654 01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:51,020 where to know where to go with it but 1655 01:05:55,180 --> 01:05:53,570 anyway I said unless those films are 1656 01:05:57,250 --> 01:05:55,190 still somewhere unless somebody hands 1657 01:05:59,140 --> 01:05:57,260 them over or somebody was unless bill 1658 01:06:01,000 --> 01:05:59,150 writes a book or somebody comes out and 1659 01:06:03,250 --> 01:06:01,010 admits you know that there was something 1660 01:06:05,530 --> 01:06:03,260 to it and gives the names of everybody 1661 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:05,540 at the ladder so you can follow the you 1662 01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:08,050 know the names to whoever was in charge 1663 01:06:12,970 --> 01:06:10,370 at this point it's kind of one of those 1664 01:06:14,530 --> 01:06:12,980 cold cases that you know I don't know if 1665 01:06:17,410 --> 01:06:14,540 we'll ever have resolution to it but I 1666 01:06:18,820 --> 01:06:17,420 would like to see some justice done for 1667 01:06:22,510 --> 01:06:18,830 Paul bennewitz who thought he was doing 1668 01:06:25,090 --> 01:06:22,520 the right thing and got it someone wrote 1669 01:06:29,530 --> 01:06:25,100 in the chat room that they were under 1670 01:06:33,210 --> 01:06:29,540 the understanding that bill Moore was 1671 01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:33,220 talking about mj-12 five years before 1672 01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:35,200 he received anything in the mail have 1673 01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:38,170 you ever heard that no I never have 1674 01:06:42,930 --> 01:06:40,810 I mean I you know believe me if that's 1675 01:06:43,290 --> 01:06:42,940 the case and and it's I just never heard 1676 01:06:46,140 --> 01:06:43,300 of it 1677 01:06:48,270 --> 01:06:46,150 fine had I'd rather have the truth out 1678 01:06:50,190 --> 01:06:48,280 and get the correct information and sent 1679 01:06:53,069 --> 01:06:50,200 repeating it but I looked carefully at 1680 01:06:54,270 --> 01:06:53,079 this I was then interested in UFOs all 1681 01:06:56,069 --> 01:06:54,280 through that time and actually it was a 1682 01:06:59,550 --> 01:06:56,079 lot more directly active in things at 1683 01:07:03,030 --> 01:06:59,560 that time and I believe I'm correct that 1684 01:07:04,380 --> 01:07:03,040 if you go back and look you'll see I'm 1685 01:07:06,140 --> 01:07:04,390 not saying somebody could come up with 1686 01:07:09,359 --> 01:07:06,150 some document today that seems to be 1687 01:07:12,690 --> 01:07:09,369 post dated you know for some date way 1688 01:07:15,540 --> 01:07:12,700 back then but to my understanding I've 1689 01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:15,550 seen nothing I mean why would Bill and 1690 01:07:20,700 --> 01:07:18,730 Jamie Shandra have a presentation 1691 01:07:24,420 --> 01:07:20,710 showing these documents they receive 1692 01:07:28,140 --> 01:07:24,430 that had mj-12 stuff on them if bill had 1693 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:28,150 known about it five years before I don't 1694 01:07:31,620 --> 01:07:30,010 know I don't know my understanding I had 1695 01:07:33,450 --> 01:07:31,630 never seen any word of it and I would 1696 01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:33,460 love to see any evidence if somebody's 1697 01:07:37,890 --> 01:07:35,650 got some that had been mentioned prior 1698 01:07:40,050 --> 01:07:37,900 to that and so there was absolutely no 1699 01:07:42,569 --> 01:07:40,060 mention as far as you know from anyone 1700 01:07:44,010 --> 01:07:42,579 before that right not that I had ever 1701 01:07:46,589 --> 01:07:44,020 heard of my eight knowledge and I've 1702 01:07:48,059 --> 01:07:46,599 looked I looked back and I tried to do 1703 01:07:50,370 --> 01:07:48,069 as far back as I could you know digging 1704 01:07:52,740 --> 01:07:50,380 as far back as I could and I found no 1705 01:07:55,349 --> 01:07:52,750 evidence and prior to that one document 1706 01:07:58,200 --> 01:07:55,359 that supposedly was to be slipped to uh 1707 01:08:00,180 --> 01:07:58,210 that Benowitz that image a that there 1708 01:08:02,579 --> 01:08:00,190 was ever any reference anywhere to mj-12 1709 01:08:05,250 --> 01:08:02,589 okay so I want to talk a little bit 1710 01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:05,260 about race films and things like that 1711 01:08:10,319 --> 01:08:07,930 ray Stanford but before that we have 1712 01:08:12,870 --> 01:08:10,329 some questions that came in on the forum 1713 01:08:15,870 --> 01:08:12,880 from Carrie and one is do you think 1714 01:08:18,300 --> 01:08:15,880 there is any form of web surveillance 1715 01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:18,310 carried out by government agencies on 1716 01:08:23,010 --> 01:08:20,650 the subject of UFOs that could trigger 1717 01:08:26,099 --> 01:08:23,020 alerts in order to target and 1718 01:08:33,530 --> 01:08:26,109 investigate individuals using certain 1719 01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:35,849 would suspect there would be because I 1720 01:08:41,490 --> 01:08:39,130 would do it I mean the point being you 1721 01:08:44,669 --> 01:08:41,500 have to first stop start from the the 1722 01:08:46,110 --> 01:08:44,679 question of if this subject matter or at 1723 01:08:50,690 --> 01:08:46,120 least 1724 01:08:53,460 --> 01:08:50,700 any provable truth of it is out there 1725 01:08:55,410 --> 01:08:53,470 you're far better able to manage it if 1726 01:09:00,030 --> 01:08:55,420 you see it coming if you know it ahead 1727 01:09:01,470 --> 01:09:00,040 of time and as I said I have I wouldn't 1728 01:09:03,570 --> 01:09:01,480 be surprised but I suspect that one of 1729 01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:03,580 the reasons Dodie's name was finally put 1730 01:09:07,440 --> 01:09:06,250 out there was partly to draw everybody 1731 01:09:08,910 --> 01:09:07,450 to him because obviously the first thing 1732 01:09:11,490 --> 01:09:08,920 I did was pick up the phone and call him 1733 01:09:12,809 --> 01:09:11,500 now he knows who's interested so you 1734 01:09:14,099 --> 01:09:12,819 would keep a running tab of who's 1735 01:09:16,740 --> 01:09:14,109 interested in the subject and you have 1736 01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:16,750 to kind of follow who they are but if 1737 01:09:20,599 --> 01:09:18,730 this subject is as important as it is 1738 01:09:23,250 --> 01:09:20,609 that there's this kind of effort to 1739 01:09:24,660 --> 01:09:23,260 suppress the information that's really 1740 01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:24,670 telling I mean who cares if somebody 1741 01:09:29,190 --> 01:09:25,930 sees something in the distance they 1742 01:09:31,710 --> 01:09:29,200 can't prove anything let people talking 1743 01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:31,720 it's like Bigfoot but if you've got good 1744 01:09:34,829 --> 01:09:33,010 hard evidence as something that 1745 01:09:36,180 --> 01:09:34,839 especially and I think that was the 1746 01:09:37,620 --> 01:09:36,190 significance in the VIN oh it's his case 1747 01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:37,630 it wasn't just that he filmed something 1748 01:09:42,090 --> 01:09:39,850 somewhere he filmed it over an Air Force 1749 01:09:43,829 --> 01:09:42,100 Base there would be questions asked if 1750 01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:43,839 the congressman or anybody saw the films 1751 01:09:47,340 --> 01:09:45,010 and believe what they were seeing was 1752 01:09:50,490 --> 01:09:47,350 real somebody would be called to account 1753 01:09:51,870 --> 01:09:50,500 that makes it a serious issue but if 1754 01:09:55,350 --> 01:09:51,880 that's the case if all of this is a 1755 01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:55,360 secretive as it is I would I mean with 1756 01:09:58,470 --> 01:09:56,610 the digital technology especially 1757 01:09:59,880 --> 01:09:58,480 supercomputers I mean depending on who 1758 01:10:02,940 --> 01:09:59,890 you put in charge of it whether it's the 1759 01:10:06,180 --> 01:10:02,950 NSA or someone else I would keep tabs on 1760 01:10:07,650 --> 01:10:06,190 keywords you know combinations names 1761 01:10:09,270 --> 01:10:07,660 this sort of thing at least to see who's 1762 01:10:11,910 --> 01:10:09,280 doing what 1763 01:10:13,410 --> 01:10:11,920 seems to me somebody somewhere is gonna 1764 01:10:15,330 --> 01:10:13,420 call it a national security issue and 1765 01:10:18,330 --> 01:10:15,340 they'll get some budget and 1766 01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:18,340 justification for doing it but I don't 1767 01:10:27,480 --> 01:10:23,290 think you could leave it to the low 1768 01:10:29,730 --> 01:10:27,490 level higher E to do it you'd end it 1769 01:10:31,530 --> 01:10:29,740 with someone like Snowden or whoever who 1770 01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:31,540 would fight at some point along the line 1771 01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:34,810 blow the whistle on it whoever's in 1772 01:10:41,130 --> 01:10:37,090 charge of this I mean in fact this may 1773 01:10:44,340 --> 01:10:41,140 be where you have some group like like 1774 01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:44,350 an mj-12 who has got some serious 1775 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:47,610 autonomy and can set up this kind of 1776 01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:50,890 surveillance or whatnot with people that 1777 01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:53,650 are not going you know true believers in 1778 01:10:57,270 --> 01:10:55,810 the military sense I guess you'd say who 1779 01:10:59,040 --> 01:10:57,280 are never going to 1780 01:11:00,839 --> 01:10:59,050 I don't know if there's a way to 1781 01:11:02,010 --> 01:11:00,849 segregate information so nobody can put 1782 01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:02,020 two and two together and know what we're 1783 01:11:05,609 --> 01:11:03,489 talking about here you know UFOs or 1784 01:11:08,819 --> 01:11:05,619 whatever why are we tracing all these 1785 01:11:12,689 --> 01:11:08,829 guys when they ever talk about is UFO 1786 01:11:14,879 --> 01:11:12,699 evidence but but you may remember in one 1787 01:11:18,450 --> 01:11:14,889 of the documents the UFO hypothesis and 1788 01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:18,460 I believe in survival questions where 1789 01:11:23,850 --> 01:11:21,730 the guy that was writing for in an NSA 1790 01:11:27,229 --> 01:11:23,860 document was making the observation that 1791 01:11:29,459 --> 01:11:27,239 a lot of the reasons that things over in 1792 01:11:32,010 --> 01:11:29,469 back in the days of the Holocaust and 1793 01:11:33,569 --> 01:11:32,020 whatnot that nobody seemed to catch on 1794 01:11:35,729 --> 01:11:33,579 was because people just couldn't believe 1795 01:11:36,810 --> 01:11:35,739 something so terrible could happen that 1796 01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:36,820 the people who were monitoring the 1797 01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:40,449 conversations themselves just couldn't 1798 01:11:44,220 --> 01:11:42,489 believe that they were happening but the 1799 01:11:46,260 --> 01:11:44,230 point he was also making is you need to 1800 01:11:47,549 --> 01:11:46,270 find have ways to track this stuff 1801 01:11:48,870 --> 01:11:47,559 because you need to make sure you're 1802 01:11:51,029 --> 01:11:48,880 catching it ahead of time you can't 1803 01:11:53,580 --> 01:11:51,039 leave all this stuff up to just the whim 1804 01:11:57,510 --> 01:11:53,590 of whoever's doing it so I wouldn't be 1805 01:11:59,370 --> 01:11:57,520 surprised I mean I would I would also 1806 01:12:02,010 --> 01:11:59,380 think he wouldn't necessarily even have 1807 01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:02,020 to go too far to do the surveillance on 1808 01:12:09,149 --> 01:12:04,770 it if you set up an organization like 1809 01:12:11,129 --> 01:12:09,159 MUFON where you just had people report 1810 01:12:12,839 --> 01:12:11,139 to you then you don't really have to do 1811 01:12:15,510 --> 01:12:12,849 surveillance you just run to connect 1812 01:12:17,220 --> 01:12:15,520 that you know you run their database you 1813 01:12:21,270 --> 01:12:17,230 watch what comes in or out and you hit 1814 01:12:23,310 --> 01:12:21,280 delete on certain things and and but 1815 01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:23,320 pretty effectively allowed in especially 1816 01:12:26,490 --> 01:12:24,610 if you had a few people positioned in 1817 01:12:28,799 --> 01:12:26,500 the right place that could inject into 1818 01:12:32,879 --> 01:12:28,809 the conversation and basically turn it 1819 01:12:34,470 --> 01:12:32,889 this way or that way it would certainly 1820 01:12:35,970 --> 01:12:34,480 keep things out and it's the same thing 1821 01:12:37,799 --> 01:12:35,980 reason I think Blue Book went away 1822 01:12:39,959 --> 01:12:37,809 because it takes the hot potato out of 1823 01:12:43,229 --> 01:12:39,969 the air forces lap puts it in the lap of 1824 01:12:44,279 --> 01:12:43,239 some public organization but you're 1825 01:12:46,799 --> 01:12:44,289 saying guys might be running the 1826 01:12:49,350 --> 01:12:46,809 organization so I think there would be 1827 01:12:51,330 --> 01:12:49,360 there would be a good ways to monitor 1828 01:12:53,970 --> 01:12:51,340 the civil this the situation where you 1829 01:12:55,799 --> 01:12:53,980 don't necessarily have like I said an 1830 01:12:57,810 --> 01:12:55,809 autonomous group well there you go 1831 01:13:00,209 --> 01:12:57,820 no you just set up a UFO organization 1832 01:13:03,959 --> 01:13:00,219 make sure becomes worldwide or at least 1833 01:13:05,220 --> 01:13:03,969 has and has more power than any of the 1834 01:13:07,649 --> 01:13:05,230 other groups and you get everybody to 1835 01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:07,659 feed your information to them and and 1836 01:13:10,770 --> 01:13:09,489 you just have your administrator monitor 1837 01:13:13,100 --> 01:13:10,780 the stuff that comes through long before 1838 01:13:15,029 --> 01:13:13,110 you ever hit make it publicly viewable 1839 01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:15,039 delete what they want there was if 1840 01:13:19,319 --> 01:13:16,530 you've looked at some of the YouTube 1841 01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:19,329 videos you can find there was some 1842 01:13:23,490 --> 01:13:20,650 discussion about that kind of thing 1843 01:13:26,459 --> 01:13:23,500 where people who were responsible for 1844 01:13:29,580 --> 01:13:26,469 monitoring the muon database would find 1845 01:13:31,620 --> 01:13:29,590 certain cases just disappeared you know 1846 01:13:33,709 --> 01:13:31,630 some no no why was he given to the Star 1847 01:13:36,540 --> 01:13:33,719 team is it given to whomever else but 1848 01:13:37,919 --> 01:13:36,550 that's what they said so I'm just citing 1849 01:13:40,379 --> 01:13:37,929 you know that some of the people had 1850 01:13:41,669 --> 01:13:40,389 made the comment that some cases would 1851 01:13:45,919 --> 01:13:41,679 come in and they'd come back the next 1852 01:13:48,359 --> 01:13:45,929 day and puff gone from the database so 1853 01:13:50,430 --> 01:13:48,369 I'll leave it to them to have to answer 1854 01:13:51,899 --> 01:13:50,440 for that but anyway but yeah I wouldn't 1855 01:13:54,750 --> 01:13:51,909 be surprised I mean he would think of it 1856 01:13:56,250 --> 01:13:54,760 this is that important somebody would be 1857 01:13:58,680 --> 01:13:56,260 watching it how they're doing it I don't 1858 01:14:00,990 --> 01:13:58,690 really know yeah if they actually you 1859 01:14:02,700 --> 01:14:01,000 know there's still question whether you 1860 01:14:04,649 --> 01:14:02,710 know maybe they're it's like a 1861 01:14:07,020 --> 01:14:04,659 disinformation type of thing but there's 1862 01:14:09,359 --> 01:14:07,030 still question whether the Air Force or 1863 01:14:12,260 --> 01:14:09,369 government agencies even care about it 1864 01:14:14,910 --> 01:14:12,270 you know I mean that's the way they're 1865 01:14:17,459 --> 01:14:14,920 you know putting it out there whether 1866 01:14:19,020 --> 01:14:17,469 that well true or not you know as a kind 1867 01:14:21,299 --> 01:14:19,030 of a corollary I mean you may remember 1868 01:14:26,220 --> 01:14:21,309 the story that a few years back 1869 01:14:28,379 --> 01:14:26,230 WikiLeaks began to see certain entries 1870 01:14:31,740 --> 01:14:28,389 being changed or modified in certain 1871 01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:31,750 ways and they began to in some way trace 1872 01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:34,090 back the IP addresses and they realized 1873 01:14:39,359 --> 01:14:36,610 that a lot of these IP addresses were 1874 01:14:41,819 --> 01:14:39,369 going back to Virginia towards Langley 1875 01:14:43,589 --> 01:14:41,829 hmm and they began to suspect maybe 1876 01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:43,599 there are people who are monitoring the 1877 01:14:47,459 --> 01:14:44,650 information that's being put on 1878 01:14:50,819 --> 01:14:47,469 WikiLeaks and if you can't necessarily 1879 01:14:52,890 --> 01:14:50,829 just erase it maybe you go in and you 1880 01:14:54,660 --> 01:14:52,900 just change it for keywords or you 1881 01:14:57,470 --> 01:14:54,670 change a little bit of something or you 1882 01:15:01,290 --> 01:14:57,480 drop out this name or whatnot and 1883 01:15:03,029 --> 01:15:01,300 effectively you may end up just cutting 1884 01:15:04,410 --> 01:15:03,039 off the threads that tie things together 1885 01:15:06,779 --> 01:15:04,420 so that it goes nowhere 1886 01:15:09,060 --> 01:15:06,789 but if they're if somebody's monitoring 1887 01:15:11,790 --> 01:15:09,070 WikiLeaks why wouldn't you monitor 1888 01:15:13,379 --> 01:15:11,800 something that if correct potentially is 1889 01:15:16,020 --> 01:15:13,389 far more significant or may be far more 1890 01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:16,030 secretive so I'm not saying it's 1891 01:15:19,500 --> 01:15:17,770 possible I mean I'm saying it's may be 1892 01:15:21,930 --> 01:15:19,510 possible to monitor an entry and the 1893 01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:21,940 MUFON database and just change the name 1894 01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:24,489 of the city or change the date 1895 01:15:27,330 --> 01:15:25,930 so nobody can look and say wait we've 1896 01:15:28,890 --> 01:15:27,340 got these correlating cases that all 1897 01:15:30,150 --> 01:15:28,900 seem to occur at the same time in these 1898 01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:30,160 cities and look they're all on a line 1899 01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:33,010 that would potentially spark somebody's 1900 01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:34,330 interest if you could go in and just 1901 01:15:39,630 --> 01:15:37,450 modify it a little bit so there's a Mis 1902 01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:39,640 type in this or this wouldn't be hard I 1903 01:15:45,420 --> 01:15:41,890 think to kind of at least mitigate your 1904 01:15:46,890 --> 01:15:45,430 the problem so who knows you know it's 1905 01:15:48,330 --> 01:15:46,900 just still speculation at this point 1906 01:15:50,970 --> 01:15:48,340 until we have an Edward Snowden who 1907 01:15:54,030 --> 01:15:50,980 comes out and reveals that to everyone 1908 01:15:56,310 --> 01:15:54,040 yeah also the another question in the 1909 01:15:59,520 --> 01:15:56,320 forum is kind of along the same lines of 1910 01:16:02,220 --> 01:15:59,530 whistleblowers this person Kerry wanted 1911 01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:02,230 to know what you thought about supposed 1912 01:16:09,450 --> 01:16:04,570 whistleblowers such as Bob Lazar or dan 1913 01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:09,460 burisch are you familiar with Dan yeah 1914 01:16:21,860 --> 01:16:14,050 but there were let me just say first 1915 01:16:27,390 --> 01:16:21,870 Lazar there were aspects of Lazar that 1916 01:16:29,430 --> 01:16:27,400 rang true to me I can't get into the 1917 01:16:32,010 --> 01:16:29,440 specific details of it I just have to 1918 01:16:33,930 --> 01:16:32,020 say somewhere in my gut instincts and 1919 01:16:36,570 --> 01:16:33,940 I've heard and read all the stories of 1920 01:16:40,979 --> 01:16:36,580 people tracing back his school history 1921 01:16:43,229 --> 01:16:40,989 and claiming you know whatnot is it 1922 01:16:45,270 --> 01:16:43,239 impossible to use fake news to defuse a 1923 01:16:48,810 --> 01:16:45,280 situation well here we are 1924 01:16:51,510 --> 01:16:48,820 28:17 fake news seems to be everywhere 1925 01:16:53,790 --> 01:16:51,520 the Russians are buying you know stuff 1926 01:16:55,260 --> 01:16:53,800 on Facebook or whatever on Facebook to 1927 01:16:57,720 --> 01:16:55,270 hope to change a few minds here and 1928 01:17:01,440 --> 01:16:57,730 there would it be possible for someone 1929 01:17:03,540 --> 01:17:01,450 to go in and modify some of lazarre's 1930 01:17:05,010 --> 01:17:03,550 information as I think it was the 1931 01:17:06,180 --> 01:17:05,020 Woods's or some of these other people 1932 01:17:09,540 --> 01:17:06,190 who have claimed they could find no 1933 01:17:12,630 --> 01:17:09,550 evidence to back up his school history 1934 01:17:16,350 --> 01:17:12,640 or whatnot but then again you got the 1935 01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:16,360 newspaper pictures of him out there and 1936 01:17:20,670 --> 01:17:19,090 I think it was the Los Alamos or 1937 01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:20,680 whatever working on his jet car and 1938 01:17:28,530 --> 01:17:24,850 those kinds of things and so there's I 1939 01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:28,540 would just say I don't write Bob Lazar 1940 01:17:34,530 --> 01:17:31,090 off I mean Paul bennewitz talked about 1941 01:17:37,380 --> 01:17:34,540 some fairly out-there things who knows 1942 01:17:38,220 --> 01:17:37,390 why he was he got to that point but the 1943 01:17:41,460 --> 01:17:38,230 crux of the 1944 01:17:43,890 --> 01:17:41,470 of his story is solid as a rock I don't 1945 01:17:45,350 --> 01:17:43,900 know what Lazar saw was he set up you 1946 01:17:47,550 --> 01:17:45,360 know is this some way to weed out 1947 01:17:50,460 --> 01:17:47,560 potential whistleblowers by showing him 1948 01:17:51,630 --> 01:17:50,470 strange things and see who squeals but 1949 01:17:54,480 --> 01:17:51,640 then at the same time you have the 1950 01:17:57,480 --> 01:17:54,490 curious story that John Lear was somehow 1951 01:17:59,550 --> 01:17:57,490 involved with Lazarre early on and John 1952 01:18:01,500 --> 01:17:59,560 Lear may have actually gone out there 1953 01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:01,510 with him to see some of the things Lazar 1954 01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:05,770 was talking about so those are other 1955 01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:07,450 witnesses if you want to call them 1956 01:18:11,850 --> 01:18:08,890 witness isn't it my understanding it 1957 01:18:13,620 --> 01:18:11,860 wasn't just one just John Lear but his 1958 01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:13,630 course is that it's coincidental that he 1959 01:18:17,550 --> 01:18:15,610 suddenly shows up but there were 1960 01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:17,560 apparently other people that Lazar had 1961 01:18:22,530 --> 01:18:19,930 talked to who were going out to these 1962 01:18:25,020 --> 01:18:22,540 places with him on whatever night at 1963 01:18:26,610 --> 01:18:25,030 certain time to see things he was 1964 01:18:29,670 --> 01:18:26,620 telling him and that much seems to hold 1965 01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:29,680 true so I might have thought well that 1966 01:18:33,540 --> 01:18:31,570 does seem to suggest that he was working 1967 01:18:35,340 --> 01:18:33,550 out in these places where he would gain 1968 01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:35,350 some knowledge the average person would 1969 01:18:40,350 --> 01:18:38,050 never get enough to tell people what x 1970 01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:40,360 to be out there all I'm saying is that's 1971 01:18:47,070 --> 01:18:41,770 why I just say there are aspects of 1972 01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:47,080 Lazar that I don't dismiss not only 1973 01:18:50,990 --> 01:18:50,050 because when he talks and you look at 1974 01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:51,000 his face 1975 01:18:58,590 --> 01:18:55,930 the way he presents himself seems fairly 1976 01:18:59,910 --> 01:18:58,600 believable to me but that doesn't 1977 01:19:02,100 --> 01:18:59,920 necessarily make it true just because I 1978 01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:02,110 you know I'm kind of on the fence with 1979 01:19:06,810 --> 01:19:04,090 it well you know I'm dan burisch dan 1980 01:19:08,430 --> 01:19:06,820 burisch and all the others mmm far less 1981 01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:08,440 so the guy that claimed he had worked it 1982 01:19:12,630 --> 01:19:11,290 you know even at Dulce and what's that 1983 01:19:15,210 --> 01:19:12,640 guy's name he's passed away I believe 1984 01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:15,220 but all those stories I don't I don't 1985 01:19:19,710 --> 01:19:18,130 buy him yes as far as Lazar goes you 1986 01:19:21,870 --> 01:19:19,720 know I'm kind of on the fence about him 1987 01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:21,880 and one of the things that makes me 1988 01:19:27,750 --> 01:19:25,810 really think twice is George Knapp's 1989 01:19:30,690 --> 01:19:27,760 thought I have a lot of respect for 1990 01:19:33,150 --> 01:19:30,700 George Knapp and you know he he thinks 1991 01:19:35,850 --> 01:19:33,160 he's a real deal and George is a very 1992 01:19:38,850 --> 01:19:35,860 smart guy so you know I have to say I 1993 01:19:40,740 --> 01:19:38,860 was very appreciative of you know when 1994 01:19:42,210 --> 01:19:40,750 Knapp had me on you know coast to coast 1995 01:19:44,910 --> 01:19:42,220 chemical because I agree with you a 1996 01:19:47,580 --> 01:19:44,920 hundred percent Knapp George Knapp does 1997 01:19:50,130 --> 01:19:47,590 not seem to be a I mean even at the time 1998 01:19:52,380 --> 01:19:50,140 being a newsman where he was you know 1999 01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:52,390 these guys have reputations to 2000 01:19:58,770 --> 01:19:55,930 if they're suckered so if Knapp was I 2001 01:20:00,600 --> 01:19:58,780 agree if Matt stood by Whois are at the 2002 01:20:02,130 --> 01:20:00,610 time I have to figure he has a lot more 2003 01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:02,140 information to base his opinion on than 2004 01:20:06,450 --> 01:20:04,810 I did and Knapp has never seemed to me 2005 01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:06,460 to be a lightweight as far as 2006 01:20:11,670 --> 01:20:09,370 investigation and whatnot go so yeah 2007 01:20:13,380 --> 01:20:11,680 that's a good point yeah all right let's 2008 01:20:16,170 --> 01:20:13,390 talk about ray now I know Ray's 2009 01:20:18,540 --> 01:20:16,180 listening and I'm hoping he calls in I 2010 01:20:21,690 --> 01:20:18,550 want to talk about because you and I 2011 01:20:23,460 --> 01:20:21,700 have both gone to Ray's house and I've 2012 01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:23,470 seen some unbelievable things now the 2013 01:20:29,030 --> 01:20:26,170 one thing that you hear and I get a lot 2014 01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:29,040 of comments about this and chat and and 2015 01:20:35,730 --> 01:20:31,930 comments on the YouTube video and on the 2016 01:20:39,060 --> 01:20:35,740 podcast is maybe ray can explain it 2017 01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:39,070 why doesn't ray show the world is his 2018 01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:40,770 amazing things 2019 01:20:49,910 --> 01:20:43,330 yeah the quintessential question I've 2020 01:20:52,830 --> 01:20:49,920 asked for 20 years you know I I have I 2021 01:20:55,710 --> 01:20:52,840 support let's just say to begin with 2022 01:21:02,040 --> 01:20:55,720 especially the film that Ray has that I 2023 01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:02,050 wrote about and Ray had sent me plenty 2024 01:21:07,650 --> 01:21:05,050 of images over the past 20 or 30 years 2025 01:21:09,330 --> 01:21:07,660 when I first met him and since then 2026 01:21:11,190 --> 01:21:09,340 we've been taught we talked for a long 2027 01:21:12,570 --> 01:21:11,200 time and we go hi Nicole like brothers 2028 01:21:13,830 --> 01:21:12,580 and / your arguments and then we won't 2029 01:21:16,440 --> 01:21:13,840 talk for a while they were finally works 2030 01:21:18,990 --> 01:21:16,450 it out I know a lot about Ray's 2031 01:21:22,980 --> 01:21:19,000 background I know my impression of his 2032 01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:22,990 personality I don't have any issue with 2033 01:21:26,070 --> 01:21:25,210 if somebody's wrong about something or 2034 01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:26,080 right about something 2035 01:21:31,020 --> 01:21:29,170 you know it's not a matter of being you 2036 01:21:34,410 --> 01:21:31,030 know the point is it doesn't bother me 2037 01:21:35,730 --> 01:21:34,420 if on occasion he shows me something and 2038 01:21:36,990 --> 01:21:35,740 I'm like ray you know I don't think 2039 01:21:41,070 --> 01:21:37,000 there's well factor in this or that or 2040 01:21:43,470 --> 01:21:41,080 the other and but every time he send me 2041 01:21:44,700 --> 01:21:43,480 things he knew that if he sent me an 2042 01:21:46,740 --> 01:21:44,710 image of something to look at him when 2043 01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:46,750 he wanted to know what I thought he knew 2044 01:21:51,270 --> 01:21:48,970 I was in my way gonna put it through the 2045 01:21:54,510 --> 01:21:51,280 ringer if I didn't see what he saw I'd 2046 01:21:56,190 --> 01:21:54,520 tell him if I could see what he saw then 2047 01:21:59,820 --> 01:21:56,200 I would tell him that and sometimes I 2048 01:22:03,240 --> 01:21:59,830 would say yeah but right what do you do 2049 01:22:04,980 --> 01:22:03,250 with it it's I can see it it's like some 2050 01:22:06,310 --> 01:22:04,990 scientist examining something in a 2051 01:22:08,530 --> 01:22:06,320 faraway galaxy 2052 01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:08,540 they can see it in another scientist may 2053 01:22:13,330 --> 01:22:09,770 see it and it means something but for 2054 01:22:15,550 --> 01:22:13,340 the average person you know make note of 2055 01:22:18,010 --> 01:22:15,560 it but we what do we do with it like you 2056 01:22:21,330 --> 01:22:18,020 know but there were plenty of things 2057 01:22:25,270 --> 01:22:21,340 that Ray has filmed that in some cases I 2058 01:22:28,480 --> 01:22:25,280 found things that he had not seen in one 2059 01:22:29,890 --> 01:22:28,490 case purely by accident but to me one of 2060 01:22:30,190 --> 01:22:29,900 the most significant things I had ever 2061 01:22:34,300 --> 01:22:30,200 seen 2062 01:22:37,780 --> 01:22:34,310 still raised the hair on my arm so I 2063 01:22:39,610 --> 01:22:37,790 know and in fact just by sheer 2064 01:22:41,140 --> 01:22:39,620 coincidence when I first went to visit 2065 01:22:42,970 --> 01:22:41,150 Ray years ago he was actually living in 2066 01:22:46,180 --> 01:22:42,980 Austin at the time but when I went to 2067 01:22:49,300 --> 01:22:46,190 visit him here years ago it was because 2068 01:22:51,430 --> 01:22:49,310 I was working on kind of a painting of a 2069 01:22:53,380 --> 01:22:51,440 Socorro case and I happened to see Ray's 2070 01:22:55,300 --> 01:22:53,390 book and I knew who Ray was and I bumped 2071 01:22:57,340 --> 01:22:55,310 into him at a conference and he invited 2072 01:22:59,830 --> 01:22:57,350 me down year or two later I came down to 2073 01:23:01,570 --> 01:22:59,840 Austin to see him and this was prior to 2074 01:23:03,130 --> 01:23:01,580 the computer age you know everything was 2075 01:23:05,290 --> 01:23:03,140 on film or it was that was all you had 2076 01:23:07,510 --> 01:23:05,300 and he showed me plenty of things that 2077 01:23:09,910 --> 01:23:07,520 he had that subsequently years later I 2078 01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:09,920 get a chance to put him in Photoshop or 2079 01:23:12,940 --> 01:23:11,330 whatever and take a closer look at him 2080 01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:12,950 but I remember seeing them so I knew 2081 01:23:18,100 --> 01:23:14,330 he'd had them all that time and he took 2082 01:23:20,440 --> 01:23:18,110 him on film but this film that we're 2083 01:23:23,890 --> 01:23:20,450 talking about specifically the more 2084 01:23:24,550 --> 01:23:23,900 recent the Bema head film I remember him 2085 01:23:27,820 --> 01:23:24,560 saying to me 2086 01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:27,830 because I think I was seeing him six 2087 01:23:32,020 --> 01:23:29,690 months seven eight months maybe after 2088 01:23:33,460 --> 01:23:32,030 he'd taken the film and he said here let 2089 01:23:35,020 --> 01:23:33,470 me show you something I just got not too 2090 01:23:37,270 --> 01:23:35,030 long ago and he put it up on a slide 2091 01:23:39,670 --> 01:23:37,280 screen in his living room and shown it 2092 01:23:41,710 --> 01:23:39,680 on the screen I described this situation 2093 01:23:43,810 --> 01:23:41,720 even in the book that I remember too 2094 01:23:46,420 --> 01:23:43,820 seeing this you know when you know 2095 01:23:48,970 --> 01:23:46,430 you're seeing something real I mean your 2096 01:23:50,440 --> 01:23:48,980 intuitive feeling of I'm looking at 2097 01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:50,450 something that was definitely filmed 2098 01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:53,810 against the sky it's way up there and I 2099 01:23:58,990 --> 01:23:56,650 got up and walked to the screen and 2100 01:24:01,510 --> 01:23:59,000 stood you know less than a foot from the 2101 01:24:04,570 --> 01:24:01,520 screen to try to just get a good look at 2102 01:24:08,830 --> 01:24:04,580 what this thing was and I remembered at 2103 01:24:12,310 --> 01:24:08,840 the time no doubt in my mind that this 2104 01:24:13,660 --> 01:24:12,320 was an a frame from an actual film that 2105 01:24:15,790 --> 01:24:13,670 he had taken and of course then later 2106 01:24:18,129 --> 01:24:15,800 you see all the other frames as well 2107 01:24:20,350 --> 01:24:18,139 but it's not until of course years later 2108 01:24:21,850 --> 01:24:20,360 when you get into the computers and that 2109 01:24:24,339 --> 01:24:21,860 you've got Photoshop and other types of 2110 01:24:26,229 --> 01:24:24,349 enhancement programs that you're able to 2111 01:24:28,330 --> 01:24:26,239 actually work with them on the pixel 2112 01:24:30,629 --> 01:24:28,340 level and get in there and try to pull 2113 01:24:34,299 --> 01:24:30,639 out more details here and there 2114 01:24:37,569 --> 01:24:34,309 Andrade spends plenty of time doing that 2115 01:24:39,790 --> 01:24:37,579 I mean I guarantee you he's all the same 2116 01:24:42,250 --> 01:24:39,800 he's gaining in the dinosaur tracks and 2117 01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:42,260 paleontology I'll guarantee you them 2118 01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:44,570 time he spent on that is nowhere close 2119 01:24:49,089 --> 01:24:47,090 to the time you spent looking closely at 2120 01:24:53,020 --> 01:24:49,099 these images and finding details in them 2121 01:24:55,359 --> 01:24:53,030 and whatnot and but even then even in 2122 01:24:59,770 --> 01:24:55,369 this case of this particular film it's 2123 01:25:02,649 --> 01:24:59,780 not just the film it's the aftermath I 2124 01:25:04,780 --> 01:25:02,659 mean it's ray got the film I looked at 2125 01:25:06,459 --> 01:25:04,790 it I could see I could see the beam but 2126 01:25:08,049 --> 01:25:06,469 you know I'd be speculating I mean I 2127 01:25:10,750 --> 01:25:08,059 knew enough to guess the beams doing 2128 01:25:12,609 --> 01:25:10,760 something or why would it be there but 2129 01:25:16,390 --> 01:25:12,619 it's the aftermath later on the whole 2130 01:25:18,819 --> 01:25:16,400 story that came when Mirabeau went to 2131 01:25:23,589 --> 01:25:18,829 visit ray and all of that afterwards 2132 01:25:27,700 --> 01:25:23,599 that convinces me even more so that this 2133 01:25:29,350 --> 01:25:27,710 particular film may be the film of well 2134 01:25:30,549 --> 01:25:29,360 I say the film of all films then I 2135 01:25:35,919 --> 01:25:30,559 immediately think of some of the other 2136 01:25:37,990 --> 01:25:35,929 ones to raise has gotten that I just I 2137 01:25:39,129 --> 01:25:38,000 can't even explain unless it is what it 2138 01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:39,139 is I mean that's the only way to look at 2139 01:25:45,970 --> 01:25:40,010 it it's what it is 2140 01:25:50,770 --> 01:25:45,980 now does this make it aliens what I mean 2141 01:25:53,290 --> 01:25:50,780 that's a catch-22 because sure who cares 2142 01:25:56,319 --> 01:25:53,300 at this point I mean I laugh because I 2143 01:25:57,669 --> 01:25:56,329 think it's like an Indian sitting on the 2144 01:25:59,350 --> 01:25:57,679 coast of South America and seeing a 2145 01:26:01,060 --> 01:25:59,360 Spanish galleon going out there you know 2146 01:26:03,609 --> 01:26:01,070 half quarter mile or a mile off the 2147 01:26:06,220 --> 01:26:03,619 coast and realizing they've got wood 2148 01:26:09,010 --> 01:26:06,230 canoes and these guys have got this huge 2149 01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:09,020 thing sailing by is it only gonna matter 2150 01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:10,610 to you if it's the Spanish and not the 2151 01:26:15,100 --> 01:26:13,040 English hmm or are you gonna look at 2152 01:26:18,430 --> 01:26:15,110 this thing and especially if you've seen 2153 01:26:20,470 --> 01:26:18,440 you know your sheets blowing and you see 2154 01:26:23,740 --> 01:26:20,480 the sails and you can kind of deduce 2155 01:26:27,339 --> 01:26:23,750 that whoa I stick something up and put 2156 01:26:29,770 --> 01:26:27,349 my you know my canvas on it the wind can 2157 01:26:30,970 --> 01:26:29,780 maybe okay but the point is that 2158 01:26:34,299 --> 01:26:30,980 kind of the way I look at these things 2159 01:26:39,189 --> 01:26:34,309 now at some point the objects were there 2160 01:26:42,279 --> 01:26:39,199 I did a whole lot of work as exhaustive 2161 01:26:46,660 --> 01:26:42,289 as I could do it looking at the people 2162 01:26:48,010 --> 01:26:46,670 who had written papers prior to Mirabeau 2163 01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:48,020 releasing his paper on the 2164 01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:50,690 directed-energy or spike people you know 2165 01:26:55,359 --> 01:26:53,690 the prior work so to speak and how many 2166 01:26:57,879 --> 01:26:55,369 papers had been written afterwards this 2167 01:26:58,479 --> 01:26:57,889 cited his so you look at his and see who 2168 01:27:00,310 --> 01:26:58,489 he cites 2169 01:27:04,299 --> 01:27:00,320 and then you go back and look at what 2170 01:27:05,950 --> 01:27:04,309 that work was in prior to the stuff he 2171 01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:05,960 decided he had written some other papers 2172 01:27:11,649 --> 01:27:09,050 which showed he's been interested in the 2173 01:27:14,140 --> 01:27:11,659 types of ways to you know mitigate 2174 01:27:15,609 --> 01:27:14,150 shockwaves or to be able to travel 2175 01:27:17,020 --> 01:27:15,619 faster in the atmosphere this sort of 2176 01:27:19,990 --> 01:27:17,030 thing and what that tells me is simply 2177 01:27:22,750 --> 01:27:20,000 this is a guy who already had some 2178 01:27:25,060 --> 01:27:22,760 awareness of the science behind other 2179 01:27:26,649 --> 01:27:25,070 aerospace engineering aspects of it and 2180 01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:26,659 therefore if he sees something he's 2181 01:27:30,910 --> 01:27:28,489 gonna be able to recognize far more in 2182 01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:30,920 it than the average you know Joe 2183 01:27:34,060 --> 01:27:32,210 wouldn't know would know who doesn't 2184 01:27:37,390 --> 01:27:34,070 have the the prior experience or the 2185 01:27:39,819 --> 01:27:37,400 background in aerospace engineering but 2186 01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:39,829 the point to me was if you look at 2187 01:27:42,490 --> 01:27:41,090 everything he had written and then you 2188 01:27:44,529 --> 01:27:42,500 go back and look at everything anyone 2189 01:27:48,310 --> 01:27:44,539 else had written that he used to cite in 2190 01:27:51,700 --> 01:27:48,320 his in his paper and you realize there 2191 01:27:54,879 --> 01:27:51,710 was nothing any anywhere near the 2192 01:27:58,779 --> 01:27:54,889 magnitude of that no one had really 2193 01:28:01,510 --> 01:27:58,789 anticipated what you know what Ray has 2194 01:28:02,950 --> 01:28:01,520 in film and even if some of what people 2195 01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:02,960 have begun by that time begun to 2196 01:28:06,729 --> 01:28:05,210 speculate on how you might do things I 2197 01:28:08,350 --> 01:28:06,739 mean there was counterflow combustion 2198 01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:08,360 back and I think even in the German days 2199 01:28:12,790 --> 01:28:11,210 and whatnot but if you look at the 2200 01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:12,800 technological development stage I think 2201 01:28:20,919 --> 01:28:16,730 by 85 I think was 85 when Ray took his 2202 01:28:23,129 --> 01:28:20,929 film how long would it have been not 2203 01:28:25,419 --> 01:28:23,139 just on the design stage but in the 2204 01:28:28,660 --> 01:28:25,429 experimental stage and the building 2205 01:28:30,490 --> 01:28:28,670 stage before you had I think it was six 2206 01:28:32,290 --> 01:28:30,500 of these things in a seventh some 2207 01:28:35,439 --> 01:28:32,300 unusual looking one six of these things 2208 01:28:37,149 --> 01:28:35,449 that were already produced and able to 2209 01:28:39,700 --> 01:28:37,159 fly right off the coast of Corpus 2210 01:28:41,770 --> 01:28:39,710 Christi instead of flying around in area 2211 01:28:43,330 --> 01:28:41,780 51 where if they crashed it's in a 2212 01:28:45,130 --> 01:28:43,340 protected area 2213 01:28:46,630 --> 01:28:45,140 so you've got these things that are far 2214 01:28:50,290 --> 01:28:46,640 more than just at the experimental stage 2215 01:28:52,180 --> 01:28:50,300 already flying around and the beam ahead 2216 01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:52,190 is just the beam is just one aspect of 2217 01:28:56,110 --> 01:28:53,810 this thing because one of these things 2218 01:28:58,240 --> 01:28:56,120 slows down waits for the last one to 2219 01:29:00,400 --> 01:28:58,250 catch up it doesn't fall out of the sky 2220 01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:00,410 so it's certainly not just cruising on 2221 01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:03,290 the air it's got some other you know 2222 01:29:07,630 --> 01:29:05,570 propulsion or some other mechanism going 2223 01:29:10,180 --> 01:29:07,640 on that's keeping it up besides just the 2224 01:29:12,130 --> 01:29:10,190 beam out front but if you look at these 2225 01:29:13,690 --> 01:29:12,140 things you'll realize also and some of 2226 01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:13,700 the prior work and it's something I 2227 01:29:18,010 --> 01:29:15,410 talked to Ray about what's notable about 2228 01:29:19,930 --> 01:29:18,020 it is even some of the earlier 2229 01:29:24,220 --> 01:29:19,940 indications always had a disc flying 2230 01:29:26,890 --> 01:29:24,230 like a frisbee flat horizontal and and I 2231 01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:26,900 think Mirabeau had even tried to work up 2232 01:29:34,690 --> 01:29:30,610 some ideas of how could you project a 2233 01:29:37,270 --> 01:29:34,700 plasma out front of this flat rotating 2234 01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:37,280 disc so that you would reduce some drag 2235 01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:38,690 out front and then you'd have to find a 2236 01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:40,970 way to close it in the back and this 2237 01:29:51,850 --> 01:29:48,880 right after he goes to Ray's house every 2238 01:29:53,320 --> 01:29:51,860 other design now has a beam coming out 2239 01:29:54,730 --> 01:29:53,330 of the axis of the center of the disc 2240 01:29:58,030 --> 01:29:54,740 and the disc is essentially going to be 2241 01:30:01,180 --> 01:29:58,040 flying on edge or 90 degrees to the disc 2242 01:30:03,910 --> 01:30:01,190 and no more of the other design so I you 2243 01:30:06,970 --> 01:30:03,920 know I think it's very obvious to anyone 2244 01:30:11,590 --> 01:30:06,980 and that's where I first recognized it 2245 01:30:15,130 --> 01:30:11,600 that what he saw in Ray's film changed 2246 01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:15,140 the whole his whole thinking his whole 2247 01:30:19,540 --> 01:30:18,170 aspect of how this and how you might do 2248 01:30:21,550 --> 01:30:19,550 something like that no more worrying 2249 01:30:23,170 --> 01:30:21,560 about how do you spin the plasma out of 2250 01:30:24,370 --> 01:30:23,180 the edge of the disc if you flying that 2251 01:30:26,110 --> 01:30:24,380 disc on edge and shooting the plasma 2252 01:30:28,450 --> 01:30:26,120 right out of the center of it the axis 2253 01:30:30,700 --> 01:30:28,460 is stable off you go 2254 01:30:32,230 --> 01:30:30,710 his ideas still require things Andy 2255 01:30:33,790 --> 01:30:32,240 there was an article that was or a paper 2256 01:30:35,710 --> 01:30:33,800 written by someone with NASA that was 2257 01:30:37,630 --> 01:30:35,720 looking at these kind of breakthrough 2258 01:30:40,180 --> 01:30:37,640 propulsion physics the new ideas that 2259 01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:40,190 were coming out this was 15 20 years ago 2260 01:30:46,090 --> 01:30:42,770 I think in which he even cited that 2261 01:30:49,320 --> 01:30:46,100 miramos ideas were really should promise 2262 01:30:51,820 --> 01:30:49,330 but we still lacked the technological 2263 01:30:53,770 --> 01:30:51,830 infrastructure I mean a satellite out in 2264 01:30:54,880 --> 01:30:53,780 space to beam energy from above to this 2265 01:30:56,010 --> 01:30:54,890 you know that with the way mirror but 2266 01:30:59,880 --> 01:30:56,020 was trying to do it with our 2267 01:31:03,170 --> 01:30:59,890 you know ideas of current technology is 2268 01:31:06,570 --> 01:31:03,180 one of the things that says okay fine 2269 01:31:09,300 --> 01:31:06,580 then who built what Rey filmed six of 2270 01:31:11,850 --> 01:31:09,310 seven things total flying right off the 2271 01:31:13,740 --> 01:31:11,860 coast coming along he's got an amount he 2272 01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:13,750 runs out of film filming I mean his kids 2273 01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:17,410 saw them first like I said his kids were 2274 01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:18,850 the ones he told them if you ever see 2275 01:31:24,660 --> 01:31:19,930 something interesting I'll give you ten 2276 01:31:25,980 --> 01:31:24,670 dollars right so the kids pointed out 2277 01:31:28,170 --> 01:31:25,990 first and there were other people on the 2278 01:31:30,540 --> 01:31:28,180 on the pier down there and to my 2279 01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:30,550 understanding even when Rey tried to 2280 01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:33,970 contact the paper to ask about it they 2281 01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:35,770 had even had a call from some boy who 2282 01:31:39,360 --> 01:31:37,570 had apparently taken some pictures of it 2283 01:31:42,180 --> 01:31:39,370 they were trying to convince him it was 2284 01:31:43,800 --> 01:31:42,190 a satellite broad daylight but so there 2285 01:31:45,870 --> 01:31:43,810 were other witnesses to this thing Rey 2286 01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:45,880 just happened to be right place at the 2287 01:31:50,970 --> 01:31:48,370 right time and grabbed the camera out 2288 01:31:54,330 --> 01:31:50,980 and take some films of what this these 2289 01:31:56,820 --> 01:31:54,340 things going across what they were how 2290 01:31:59,130 --> 01:31:56,830 would you explain I mean how many years 2291 01:32:00,840 --> 01:31:59,140 does it take you to go through the beta 2292 01:32:02,220 --> 01:32:00,850 testing and design work and get the 2293 01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:02,230 funding and all that to get something 2294 01:32:09,480 --> 01:32:05,650 built and by 1985 you know from a 2295 01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:09,490 practical a practical point of view if 2296 01:32:13,500 --> 01:32:11,530 you're Lockheed or whoever and you're 2297 01:32:15,510 --> 01:32:13,510 building something like this well you 2298 01:32:17,310 --> 01:32:15,520 want to keep getting budget money for 2299 01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:17,320 next year so that's like with this 2300 01:32:21,630 --> 01:32:19,330 stealth aircraft at some point you have 2301 01:32:23,070 --> 01:32:21,640 the whole presentation you open the 2302 01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:23,080 hangar with all the mist and all this 2303 01:32:25,820 --> 01:32:24,250 and you show these Congress and then 2304 01:32:28,200 --> 01:32:25,830 with their champagne what they paid for 2305 01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:28,210 because next year you got to build 2306 01:32:33,150 --> 01:32:30,010 something else and you need more grant 2307 01:32:35,220 --> 01:32:33,160 money and 20 or 30 years later it's all 2308 01:32:36,480 --> 01:32:35,230 kind of speaking old-school technology 2309 01:32:38,730 --> 01:32:36,490 and you're hopefully working on 2310 01:32:40,440 --> 01:32:38,740 something newer but after all this time 2311 01:32:43,050 --> 01:32:40,450 we still see nothing out there like what 2312 01:32:45,990 --> 01:32:43,060 Rey caught on film and we had no leaks 2313 01:32:48,740 --> 01:32:46,000 on anything nobody's even the only 2314 01:32:52,170 --> 01:32:48,750 people that I have ever seen who have 2315 01:32:54,990 --> 01:32:52,180 come up with ideas that I think look 2316 01:32:58,110 --> 01:32:55,000 really related to the kind of thing Rey 2317 01:33:00,900 --> 01:32:58,120 film were Mirabeau who of course his 2318 01:33:04,260 --> 01:33:00,910 designs changed almost look like what 2319 01:33:06,480 --> 01:33:04,270 rate had on film and and a guy named 2320 01:33:08,149 --> 01:33:06,490 Kevin Kramer out of University of 2321 01:33:09,950 --> 01:33:08,159 Arizona I believe 2322 01:33:13,850 --> 01:33:09,960 while I was working on the book he had 2323 01:33:16,910 --> 01:33:13,860 filed a patent on some method of firing 2324 01:33:19,010 --> 01:33:16,920 energy focusing it down aligned where it 2325 01:33:21,620 --> 01:33:19,020 would actually create a shockwave and 2326 01:33:22,910 --> 01:33:21,630 and I I think I either talked to him on 2327 01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:22,920 the phone or wrote him some emails and 2328 01:33:25,459 --> 01:33:24,210 asked him about it and he was like oh 2329 01:33:26,780 --> 01:33:25,469 you're telling me because I said I've 2330 01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:26,790 seen something that looks a lot like 2331 01:33:31,310 --> 01:33:29,610 that he said oh man that's nothing you 2332 01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:31,320 hate to hear the fact that you have a 2333 01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:32,610 patent on something somebody's already 2334 01:33:37,970 --> 01:33:35,130 doing you know I didn't I was like well 2335 01:33:40,819 --> 01:33:37,980 nobody around here I don't think but the 2336 01:33:44,359 --> 01:33:40,829 point is there's this little bit of 2337 01:33:47,359 --> 01:33:44,369 evidence that our scientists or in some 2338 01:33:50,240 --> 01:33:47,369 ways at this in the last 20 years have 2339 01:33:53,990 --> 01:33:50,250 begun to come up with speculate on ideas 2340 01:33:55,430 --> 01:33:54,000 for doing things like this but we don't 2341 01:33:57,350 --> 01:33:55,440 see it in production out here 2342 01:33:58,669 --> 01:33:57,360 we certainly nobody's flying around 2343 01:34:02,479 --> 01:33:58,679 things that look like what ray got on 2344 01:34:05,510 --> 01:34:02,489 film so I'm good Chris did you by the 2345 01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:05,520 way rhino Ray's listening so I'm gonna 2346 01:34:13,609 --> 01:34:08,610 invite him to call in ray police Colin 2347 01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:13,619 if you listening 6:03 967 403 Oh 2348 01:34:19,669 --> 01:34:16,170 someone just posted on the chat room and 2349 01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:19,679 I know that I saw stills from this film 2350 01:34:23,750 --> 01:34:21,570 have you actually seen the film itself 2351 01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:23,760 or do you see this still not quite not 2352 01:34:30,290 --> 01:34:27,570 playing you know like I said earlier I 2353 01:34:32,390 --> 01:34:30,300 have a straight you know digitized one 2354 01:34:35,870 --> 01:34:32,400 minute of it whatever it takes you know 2355 01:34:37,879 --> 01:34:35,880 go it was even you can buy these things 2356 01:34:39,290 --> 01:34:37,889 and not too expensive that allow you to 2357 01:34:42,379 --> 01:34:39,300 shoot frame by frame and you can create 2358 01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:42,389 a digital image of it I don't know if 2359 01:34:45,589 --> 01:34:44,010 he's been busy with other things or for 2360 01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:45,599 whatever reason hasn't got done he's as 2361 01:34:50,629 --> 01:34:48,090 I can imagine like we talked about 2362 01:34:54,020 --> 01:34:50,639 bennewitz as films ray is extremely 2363 01:34:56,689 --> 01:34:54,030 protective of the films in fact one of 2364 01:34:59,990 --> 01:34:56,699 the odd things was the last conversation 2365 01:35:04,490 --> 01:35:00,000 that I had with Mirabeau where I just 2366 01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:04,500 called him anyway when he was really 2367 01:35:08,479 --> 01:35:06,810 kind of cautious about talking about it 2368 01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:08,489 but he even mentioned he said yeah well 2369 01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:10,290 the one thing I remember is Ray was 2370 01:35:14,149 --> 01:35:12,090 really protective of the films kept him 2371 01:35:15,260 --> 01:35:14,159 locked in a safe and I'm like you 2372 01:35:18,919 --> 01:35:15,270 wouldn't know that unless you'd been 2373 01:35:21,970 --> 01:35:18,929 there but the idea was yes Ray's I think 2374 01:35:25,870 --> 01:35:21,980 that's him yeah he's calling it now 2375 01:35:30,620 --> 01:35:25,880 hey ray how are you welcome to the show 2376 01:35:31,090 --> 01:35:30,630 ray can you hear me hey ray can you hear 2377 01:35:37,820 --> 01:35:31,100 me 2378 01:35:40,850 --> 01:35:37,830 sure I can hey how are you Ray this is 2379 01:35:44,990 --> 01:35:40,860 Martin and you're aren't with both Chris 2380 01:35:48,470 --> 01:35:45,000 and myself okay well good have some fun 2381 01:35:51,110 --> 01:35:48,480 I think there's a lot of details here in 2382 01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:51,120 this film and and what I've done with it 2383 01:35:55,490 --> 01:35:52,890 and what I haven't done with it that 2384 01:35:57,880 --> 01:35:55,500 that it people might find it interesting 2385 01:36:01,820 --> 01:35:57,890 for me to share if I may 2386 01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:01,830 yeah yeah please do please do this okay 2387 01:36:08,689 --> 01:36:04,890 well let me let me kind of summarize 2388 01:36:10,419 --> 01:36:08,699 this in some detail as Chris said it was 2389 01:36:12,410 --> 01:36:10,429 my kids that pointed out to me and 2390 01:36:15,770 --> 01:36:12,420 unfortunately was out twenty bucks but 2391 01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:15,780 but a on the pier with us back to base 2392 01:36:19,459 --> 01:36:17,850 of the pier there was a man sitting in a 2393 01:36:21,860 --> 01:36:19,469 folded chair what his wife and his 2394 01:36:23,390 --> 01:36:21,870 lovely daughter who'd about twenty-one 2395 01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:23,400 years old were out on the pier of beyond 2396 01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:27,570 us and my kids pointed this out to me 2397 01:36:33,050 --> 01:36:31,650 and I began film it the first thing had 2398 01:36:36,590 --> 01:36:33,060 happened that was very disconcerting 2399 01:36:38,660 --> 01:36:36,600 well the first place just in the first 2400 01:36:41,510 --> 01:36:38,670 place we saw initially they pointed out 2401 01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:41,520 one object but as Chris told you there 2402 01:36:46,070 --> 01:36:44,010 was a procession of these objects much 2403 01:36:47,479 --> 01:36:46,080 to my surprise it kept coming across the 2404 01:36:49,610 --> 01:36:47,489 bay and I was brought up in Corpus 2405 01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:49,620 Christi I know the direction they were 2406 01:36:53,300 --> 01:36:50,730 coming from the direction of the 2407 01:36:58,459 --> 01:36:53,310 Ingleside to the east northeast across 2408 01:37:00,380 --> 01:36:58,469 the bay right overhead and the first 2409 01:37:03,290 --> 01:37:00,390 thing that was disconcerting about them 2410 01:37:06,860 --> 01:37:03,300 from anything I ever expected to see was 2411 01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:06,870 you think from the literature and that 2412 01:37:14,050 --> 01:37:09,770 these discs should be flying edge-on 2413 01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:14,060 they were not the from the first one 2414 01:37:18,860 --> 01:37:16,530 well I'll go to the last one if we get 2415 01:37:21,740 --> 01:37:18,870 time later but the six or seven that 2416 01:37:25,010 --> 01:37:21,750 were identical this was really shocking 2417 01:37:28,130 --> 01:37:25,020 because here you have basically a disc 2418 01:37:30,260 --> 01:37:28,140 shaped looking thing that is flying flat 2419 01:37:32,209 --> 01:37:30,270 side forward in other words the now that 2420 01:37:35,090 --> 01:37:32,219 dome was on the left side opposite 2421 01:37:37,760 --> 01:37:35,100 direction of travel but on the you 2422 01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:37,770 imagine this disk up your it's it's 2423 01:37:42,770 --> 01:37:40,410 tilted up 90 degrees from the way the 2424 01:37:46,100 --> 01:37:42,780 cartoons would have us believe a UFO is 2425 01:37:47,870 --> 01:37:46,110 oriented and on the left side of it 2426 01:37:50,300 --> 01:37:47,880 opposite direction of travel is the dome 2427 01:37:52,010 --> 01:37:50,310 but on the right there's something very 2428 01:37:53,420 --> 01:37:52,020 strange and you could see it best when 2429 01:37:55,070 --> 01:37:53,430 they would turn at an angle enough that 2430 01:37:56,930 --> 01:37:55,080 you could see more of the well you we 2431 01:37:59,840 --> 01:37:56,940 would think of as the bottom of it they 2432 01:38:03,620 --> 01:37:59,850 forwards side and on that side there was 2433 01:38:06,140 --> 01:38:03,630 what I thought of as the tower it looked 2434 01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:06,150 like it was made out of almost like 2435 01:38:12,170 --> 01:38:09,930 black girders or something and then from 2436 01:38:15,530 --> 01:38:12,180 the base of it in places you could see a 2437 01:38:18,380 --> 01:38:15,540 streak that went out to the rim out on 2438 01:38:22,450 --> 01:38:18,390 the that was a rather pink under there 2439 01:38:25,580 --> 01:38:22,460 but around the rim where there were six 2440 01:38:27,860 --> 01:38:25,590 sides to the rim it actually when it was 2441 01:38:31,400 --> 01:38:27,870 firing these things around the rim in 2442 01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:31,410 slow speed it slow rotation it gave me 2443 01:38:37,520 --> 01:38:35,130 the impression that it was excited as a 2444 01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:37,530 hexagon it was but when they begin to 2445 01:38:41,630 --> 01:38:39,930 fire rapidly you would have the 2446 01:38:43,910 --> 01:38:41,640 appearance that it looks like a circle 2447 01:38:45,230 --> 01:38:43,920 now because of the slow motion 2448 01:38:46,730 --> 01:38:45,240 appearance of it though I'm inclined to 2449 01:38:49,820 --> 01:38:46,740 believe that these may have been monitor 2450 01:38:52,850 --> 01:38:49,830 constructions with plug in PI 5 sections 2451 01:38:55,700 --> 01:38:52,860 maybe but anyway projecting at that site 2452 01:38:58,430 --> 01:38:55,710 is this tower well from time to time a 2453 01:39:01,370 --> 01:38:58,440 glow a brilliant blue white electrical 2454 01:39:03,920 --> 01:39:01,380 glow would appear in this tower and it 2455 01:39:05,030 --> 01:39:03,930 will project a beam directly ahead no 2456 01:39:07,370 --> 01:39:05,040 matter what direction it was heading 2457 01:39:11,090 --> 01:39:07,380 with her first horizontally and then 2458 01:39:13,490 --> 01:39:11,100 vertically this beam projected out and 2459 01:39:16,070 --> 01:39:13,500 when you look at the film and study 2460 01:39:18,350 --> 01:39:16,080 carefully I would say the maximum 2461 01:39:20,330 --> 01:39:18,360 distance this thing projected out in 2462 01:39:24,550 --> 01:39:20,340 front of it was probably about 30 2463 01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:24,560 diameters and this in itself was 2464 01:39:30,650 --> 01:39:27,330 contrary to anything I had ever seen but 2465 01:39:33,920 --> 01:39:30,660 I had a good camera 2466 01:39:36,950 --> 01:39:33,930 it was a canon 10:14 autozone and I was 2467 01:39:40,250 --> 01:39:36,960 using super 8 millimeter at a chrome 2468 01:39:42,260 --> 01:39:40,260 film in there and I thought a color I 2469 01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:42,270 guess but whatever it is anyway the 2470 01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:44,850 color transparency film not a negative 2471 01:39:50,780 --> 01:39:49,050 film and I'm filming as a 1/10 hour 2472 01:39:52,220 --> 01:39:50,790 at full telephoto well I put the camera 2473 01:39:54,410 --> 01:39:52,230 up I start filming this and I'm 2474 01:39:56,930 --> 01:39:54,420 delighted my gosh this is so weird 2475 01:39:59,540 --> 01:39:56,940 never seen thing like it and immediately 2476 01:40:02,660 --> 01:39:59,550 almost immediately I've been filming a 2477 01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:02,670 few seconds the thing really blew my 2478 01:40:07,609 --> 01:40:05,010 mind because it suddenly became maybe 2479 01:40:08,450 --> 01:40:07,619 two two-and-a-half diameters bigger than 2480 01:40:11,330 --> 01:40:08,460 it should be 2481 01:40:13,129 --> 01:40:11,340 it looked like instant and I you know 2482 01:40:14,870 --> 01:40:13,139 you're in a position saying oh my god 2483 01:40:17,299 --> 01:40:14,880 this is so important my camera's broken 2484 01:40:19,609 --> 01:40:17,309 I knew there were 32 glass elements in 2485 01:40:21,709 --> 01:40:19,619 this or is it 22 in this lens and I 2486 01:40:24,109 --> 01:40:21,719 thought oh my gosh his broken they've 2487 01:40:26,089 --> 01:40:24,119 automatically magnified it and I 2488 01:40:28,370 --> 01:40:26,099 literally I started cursing right in 2489 01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:28,380 front of my kids and the lady and her 2490 01:40:32,089 --> 01:40:29,730 daughter right there on the pier the man 2491 01:40:34,609 --> 01:40:32,099 at the other end and I was so upset and 2492 01:40:37,310 --> 01:40:34,619 my little daughter who's six years old 2493 01:40:40,189 --> 01:40:37,320 she said daddy I don't think your camera 2494 01:40:41,780 --> 01:40:40,199 broke it just got bigger and I turned to 2495 01:40:43,189 --> 01:40:41,790 the lady that has I did it just get 2496 01:40:45,020 --> 01:40:43,199 bigger and she said yes it just got 2497 01:40:47,689 --> 01:40:45,030 bigger her daughter said the same thing 2498 01:40:50,000 --> 01:40:47,699 and I turned to her husband who was at 2499 01:40:51,530 --> 01:40:50,010 the end of the pier and I said did that 2500 01:40:51,979 --> 01:40:51,540 thing look like it got bigger he said 2501 01:40:54,109 --> 01:40:51,989 yes it did 2502 01:40:56,540 --> 01:40:54,119 I said did you see it zoom down tarde I 2503 01:40:58,430 --> 01:40:56,550 said he got bigger he said no he said he 2504 01:41:01,430 --> 01:40:58,440 didn't come to you got bigger well he 2505 01:41:03,649 --> 01:41:01,440 was far enough away that I had a feeling 2506 01:41:05,060 --> 01:41:03,659 that this must be then something optical 2507 01:41:07,459 --> 01:41:05,070 or something we didn't understand it was 2508 01:41:09,290 --> 01:41:07,469 not a matter of just dropping down to us 2509 01:41:11,720 --> 01:41:09,300 and eventually returned to that normal 2510 01:41:13,939 --> 01:41:11,730 size well when this object and each one 2511 01:41:16,580 --> 01:41:13,949 of these subsequent objects God almost 2512 01:41:18,830 --> 01:41:16,590 over had a little bit south-southeast of 2513 01:41:21,260 --> 01:41:18,840 where we were from from to overhead 2514 01:41:23,959 --> 01:41:21,270 they're on the mo cold breakwater 2515 01:41:26,180 --> 01:41:23,969 Pyrrhus Corpus Christi on the north side 2516 01:41:28,609 --> 01:41:26,190 of the ebee coal park where there were 2517 01:41:32,359 --> 01:41:28,619 hundreds of people out there the thing 2518 01:41:34,399 --> 01:41:32,369 would rotate and part this this power 2519 01:41:36,200 --> 01:41:34,409 thing upward it look like it was 2520 01:41:37,790 --> 01:41:36,210 vertical or almost vertical from our 2521 01:41:40,010 --> 01:41:37,800 position and it would start going 2522 01:41:41,299 --> 01:41:40,020 straight up now normal aircraft you can 2523 01:41:43,700 --> 01:41:41,309 use them when they go away they don't 2524 01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:43,710 disappear clean straight up they go off 2525 01:41:48,589 --> 01:41:46,050 over the horizon but this thing did that 2526 01:41:52,790 --> 01:41:48,599 and in fact all of the objects that came 2527 01:41:54,740 --> 01:41:52,800 along did the same thing there was one 2528 01:41:56,780 --> 01:41:54,750 point though Chris made a good point 2529 01:41:58,729 --> 01:41:56,790 there that one stopped until the other 2530 01:42:01,790 --> 01:41:58,739 one got just a few diameters from it and 2531 01:42:02,970 --> 01:42:01,800 then they went up together but one of 2532 01:42:06,330 --> 01:42:02,980 the things that really 2533 01:42:07,530 --> 01:42:06,340 got this lady and her daughter little 2534 01:42:09,990 --> 01:42:07,540 shaken up 2535 01:42:11,910 --> 01:42:10,000 was this one of them stopped in that 2536 01:42:13,950 --> 01:42:11,920 they would always pause in the same 2537 01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:13,960 place and then go up as I said almost 2538 01:42:20,820 --> 01:42:17,850 vertically but the what happens is that 2539 01:42:22,290 --> 01:42:20,830 at that point it stopped and the Bema 2540 01:42:23,010 --> 01:42:22,300 head was not being projected wasn't 2541 01:42:24,720 --> 01:42:23,020 going anywhere 2542 01:42:27,570 --> 01:42:24,730 it's only when it's moving that we see 2543 01:42:30,300 --> 01:42:27,580 this beam ahead instead of what looked 2544 01:42:33,060 --> 01:42:30,310 like the rim of it were there were there 2545 01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:33,070 were the blue/white are actually on the 2546 01:42:37,920 --> 01:42:34,810 film there's more electrical kind of a 2547 01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:37,930 blue greenish sequentially firing things 2548 01:42:41,430 --> 01:42:40,090 that like appear marquee when they're 2549 01:42:42,900 --> 01:42:41,440 they're fired I mean the way they're 2550 01:42:44,670 --> 01:42:42,910 sequentially fired I think they were 2551 01:42:46,830 --> 01:42:44,680 sequentially fired it looked like it was 2552 01:42:48,270 --> 01:42:46,840 rotating but I'm not sure because of the 2553 01:42:49,410 --> 01:42:48,280 orientation of the tower that it was 2554 01:42:51,450 --> 01:42:49,420 rotating and all but that that was a 2555 01:42:54,030 --> 01:42:51,460 little murky effect anyway the thing is 2556 01:42:56,820 --> 01:42:54,040 there and it changes his orientation and 2557 01:42:59,550 --> 01:42:56,830 out of the edge suddenly a totally 2558 01:43:00,780 --> 01:42:59,560 different kind of so-called beam started 2559 01:43:02,970 --> 01:43:00,790 happening but it wasn't a beam of light 2560 01:43:05,850 --> 01:43:02,980 and I knew from the literature that this 2561 01:43:07,290 --> 01:43:05,860 had been described this was an electric 2562 01:43:09,450 --> 01:43:07,300 blue eyed being much bigger in diameter 2563 01:43:12,150 --> 01:43:09,460 than the beam ahead it looked totally 2564 01:43:13,500 --> 01:43:12,160 different and it projected out slowly as 2565 01:43:15,780 --> 01:43:13,510 if you're pulling an old-fashioned 2566 01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:15,790 telescope odd and then it began to 2567 01:43:21,150 --> 01:43:17,530 rotate around now that's the point where 2568 01:43:23,510 --> 01:43:21,160 this lovely lady and her daughter just 2569 01:43:27,170 --> 01:43:23,520 got pretty upset she she turned to music 2570 01:43:29,670 --> 01:43:27,180 wait what's happening what's it doing 2571 01:43:33,600 --> 01:43:29,680 don't ask me I don't know what that is 2572 01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:33,610 and but I'm filming and anyway I did 2573 01:43:37,710 --> 01:43:36,130 film it and interesting it enough when 2574 01:43:40,140 --> 01:43:37,720 you studied if and we're so exciting 2575 01:43:41,520 --> 01:43:40,150 this is all happening in high speed you 2576 01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:41,530 don't notice everyday but when we got 2577 01:43:45,810 --> 01:43:43,930 the film to study it you can see that 2578 01:43:48,510 --> 01:43:45,820 there are objects coming down this beam 2579 01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:48,520 now in the center it and they we've got 2580 01:43:51,660 --> 01:43:50,050 evidence David they're coming through it 2581 01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:51,670 and then take off at incredible speed 2582 01:43:56,760 --> 01:43:55,330 across the sky years later when I was at 2583 01:43:59,820 --> 01:43:56,770 a talking and a MUFON 2584 01:44:01,860 --> 01:43:59,830 conference and in Germany the head of me 2585 01:44:03,570 --> 01:44:01,870 fun organization there provided me with 2586 01:44:06,210 --> 01:44:03,580 some images one of which was a fabulous 2587 01:44:08,580 --> 01:44:06,220 case that they rated very highly medical 2588 01:44:10,620 --> 01:44:08,590 doctor and his wife and kids that does 2589 01:44:12,180 --> 01:44:10,630 that and his kids alerted his wife and 2590 01:44:14,910 --> 01:44:12,190 ultimately his wife and led to him at 2591 01:44:16,890 --> 01:44:14,920 his doctor's office to see this there 2592 01:44:19,500 --> 01:44:16,900 was a disc that projected a beam out and 2593 01:44:21,030 --> 01:44:19,510 it launched things through this beam and 2594 01:44:22,290 --> 01:44:21,040 I think of remember correctly they 2595 01:44:24,270 --> 01:44:22,300 eventually came back and joined the beam 2596 01:44:24,810 --> 01:44:24,280 well we didn't record them coming back 2597 01:44:27,180 --> 01:44:24,820 to it 2598 01:44:29,130 --> 01:44:27,190 but anyway that eventually the beam 2599 01:44:31,110 --> 01:44:29,140 rotated around to the left and drew in 2600 01:44:33,149 --> 01:44:31,120 and then it resumed his course turned 2601 01:44:36,510 --> 01:44:33,159 upward and went again almost straight up 2602 01:44:39,149 --> 01:44:36,520 now let me distinguish between that beam 2603 01:44:41,790 --> 01:44:39,159 which looks like well I can't be a light 2604 01:44:43,020 --> 01:44:41,800 beam people call this Solly there wasn't 2605 01:44:47,070 --> 01:44:43,030 caught it could have been confined 2606 01:44:48,149 --> 01:44:47,080 plasma somehow but to be my head most 2607 01:44:51,300 --> 01:44:48,159 people talk about this they don't 2608 01:44:54,060 --> 01:44:51,310 mention it that it's really not like a 2609 01:44:57,240 --> 01:44:54,070 beam as a laser when you look at the 2610 01:45:00,540 --> 01:44:57,250 film you see that it is remind you of a 2611 01:45:05,250 --> 01:45:00,550 twisted rope where you see a spiral 2612 01:45:08,790 --> 01:45:05,260 pattern in it and that suggests to me 2613 01:45:12,360 --> 01:45:08,800 strongly that we have a complex plasma 2614 01:45:14,430 --> 01:45:12,370 beam of some sort well when I showed 2615 01:45:17,220 --> 01:45:14,440 this initially to Marable let's keep in 2616 01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:17,230 mind this before I own you anything 2617 01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:21,730 about the computer at that time and what 2618 01:45:26,160 --> 01:45:23,650 I showed him was just color slides from 2619 01:45:28,649 --> 01:45:26,170 the film and high contrast at black and 2620 01:45:30,930 --> 01:45:28,659 white that we only had the ability to do 2621 01:45:34,800 --> 01:45:30,940 through i contrast printing on a an 2622 01:45:38,189 --> 01:45:34,810 old-fashioned xerographic printer but he 2623 01:45:40,399 --> 01:45:38,199 was it's too is he forever to his credit 2624 01:45:42,720 --> 01:45:40,409 that he had open mind enough based upon 2625 01:45:45,090 --> 01:45:42,730 his student was getting his page they 2626 01:45:46,860 --> 01:45:45,100 would him there who had seen this down 2627 01:45:48,570 --> 01:45:46,870 in Texas when I showed to him when he 2628 01:45:51,000 --> 01:45:48,580 was at UT before he went from his master 2629 01:45:53,729 --> 01:45:51,010 degree to go get his ph.d that he had 2630 01:45:56,220 --> 01:45:53,739 the courage to come here and look at 2631 01:45:58,290 --> 01:45:56,230 this with an open mind now if he could 2632 01:46:01,560 --> 01:45:58,300 see now what I have now that we've 2633 01:46:03,990 --> 01:46:01,570 gotten into image processing you can see 2634 01:46:06,780 --> 01:46:04,000 you can see with a naked eye but as you 2635 01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:06,790 contrast it you see my gosh this is just 2636 01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:09,730 not a beam that's creating a a plasma in 2637 01:46:13,950 --> 01:46:11,650 front of it in a shocked way that will 2638 01:46:15,959 --> 01:46:13,960 protect under low pressure you actually 2639 01:46:18,990 --> 01:46:15,969 see that the beam is pulsed and you can 2640 01:46:21,810 --> 01:46:19,000 see what we call pulse regimes in the 2641 01:46:24,060 --> 01:46:21,820 beam interfacing with each other each 2642 01:46:25,560 --> 01:46:24,070 beam has its own magnetic unit as you 2643 01:46:27,479 --> 01:46:25,570 have this energy moving across the beam 2644 01:46:28,740 --> 01:46:27,489 it's like an electric wire when you have 2645 01:46:30,300 --> 01:46:28,750 a current going to it is creating a 2646 01:46:31,920 --> 01:46:30,310 magnetic field 2647 01:46:35,400 --> 01:46:31,930 the further out against the weaker gets 2648 01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:35,410 but as they get closer to the source you 2649 01:46:39,660 --> 01:46:36,610 see that they're stronger and more 2650 01:46:41,670 --> 01:46:39,670 intense on what on reflecting I'm sorry 2651 01:46:45,060 --> 01:46:41,680 refracting the backlighting you can 2652 01:46:47,130 --> 01:46:45,070 actually see around these like a slur 2653 01:46:48,810 --> 01:46:47,140 and photograph in a wind tunnel but of 2654 01:46:51,590 --> 01:46:48,820 course it wasn't a wind tunnel with 2655 01:46:54,480 --> 01:46:51,600 person photography you can actually see 2656 01:46:57,510 --> 01:46:54,490 the electrification along the different 2657 01:47:02,100 --> 01:46:57,520 pulse regimes electrifying the air and 2658 01:47:04,440 --> 01:47:02,110 it's moving as a kind of a torus back 2659 01:47:06,960 --> 01:47:04,450 toward the object which has its you at 2660 01:47:09,450 --> 01:47:06,970 times see the contour of due to plasma 2661 01:47:11,820 --> 01:47:09,460 of its dipolar two-pole magnetic field 2662 01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:11,830 and you actually see this move around it 2663 01:47:15,810 --> 01:47:13,210 it's absolutely incredible 2664 01:47:17,730 --> 01:47:15,820 and if impair approach listening this I 2665 01:47:20,370 --> 01:47:17,740 invite him to come down and see what he 2666 01:47:22,920 --> 01:47:20,380 missed because it's wonderful and anyone 2667 01:47:25,950 --> 01:47:22,930 can follow this from the immediate film 2668 01:47:28,410 --> 01:47:25,960 images and and I also have copies of 2669 01:47:32,220 --> 01:47:28,420 them has slides let me let me break in 2670 01:47:34,050 --> 01:47:32,230 here and and say this is someone who's 2671 01:47:36,750 --> 01:47:34,060 wonderful why don't I digitize his film 2672 01:47:39,660 --> 01:47:36,760 in the first place when I got up here 30 2673 01:47:42,540 --> 01:47:39,670 well had been 20 or 25 years ago now I 2674 01:47:44,340 --> 01:47:42,550 began to discover these facts of 2675 01:47:46,230 --> 01:47:44,350 dinosaurs that nobody knew about and 2676 01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:46,240 I've become so involved in it I've done 2677 01:47:50,370 --> 01:47:48,250 three scientific papers and now a major 2678 01:47:53,720 --> 01:47:50,380 major one is going to be coming out with 2679 01:47:57,090 --> 01:47:53,730 a news release to a major government 2680 01:47:59,610 --> 01:47:57,100 agency where I found the tracks but this 2681 01:48:01,200 --> 01:47:59,620 is extremely time-consuming if you're 2682 01:48:02,850 --> 01:48:01,210 going to publish scientific papers on 2683 01:48:05,100 --> 01:48:02,860 this you have to apply yourself to it 2684 01:48:07,620 --> 01:48:05,110 but before I did this down in Corpus 2685 01:48:10,050 --> 01:48:07,630 Christi so this in the film itself I 2686 01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:10,060 would take and Mark frames that are 2687 01:48:14,340 --> 01:48:12,610 needed to make a nice slide of it's the 2688 01:48:16,830 --> 01:48:14,350 only access I had to him you didn't have 2689 01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:16,840 digital scanners back then so what I did 2690 01:48:21,810 --> 01:48:18,850 I took what's called slide binding tape 2691 01:48:23,790 --> 01:48:21,820 which is a tinsel eyes mylar tape with a 2692 01:48:26,340 --> 01:48:23,800 sticky stuff on it and I would stick it 2693 01:48:27,930 --> 01:48:26,350 on the frame that I wanted to copy and 2694 01:48:29,400 --> 01:48:27,940 sometimes would be a series of frames 2695 01:48:31,590 --> 01:48:29,410 and I would mark them with a code and 2696 01:48:34,110 --> 01:48:31,600 have a log of this 2697 01:48:36,420 --> 01:48:34,120 well now the film has got hundreds of 2698 01:48:38,850 --> 01:48:36,430 pieces of this tape sticking onto it 2699 01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:38,860 there it would take a lot of time to get 2700 01:48:43,440 --> 01:48:41,050 them off now we do have wonderful 2701 01:48:44,340 --> 01:48:43,450 digitizing it could be run through and 2702 01:48:46,620 --> 01:48:44,350 we 2703 01:48:48,630 --> 01:48:46,630 have video and without damaging the film 2704 01:48:51,210 --> 01:48:48,640 run it back and forth in digital form 2705 01:48:53,810 --> 01:48:51,220 and someday if I live long enough I'm 79 2706 01:48:56,460 --> 01:48:53,820 years old I hope to be able to do that 2707 01:48:59,160 --> 01:48:56,470 but let me address another question that 2708 01:49:00,960 --> 01:48:59,170 someone wrote in that you read about he 2709 01:49:04,410 --> 01:49:00,970 said why doesn't ray show this to us 2710 01:49:07,200 --> 01:49:04,420 okay I don't want to insult anybody but 2711 01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:07,210 please consider this my primary 2712 01:49:13,320 --> 01:49:09,850 objective in this is scientific 2713 01:49:15,780 --> 01:49:13,330 technological that's why I invited when 2714 01:49:18,330 --> 01:49:15,790 I had the invitation to maribo to come 2715 01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:18,340 see this my objective from the time I 2716 01:49:24,420 --> 01:49:22,690 was 15 was to help humanity get into 2717 01:49:26,040 --> 01:49:24,430 space hoping that as they get out there 2718 01:49:27,480 --> 01:49:26,050 there would almost be a kind of epiphany 2719 01:49:29,370 --> 01:49:27,490 and looking down at the world realize 2720 01:49:31,770 --> 01:49:29,380 that our differences are not as 2721 01:49:35,880 --> 01:49:31,780 important as our unity and as a living 2722 01:49:38,790 --> 01:49:35,890 planet and this I saw is an opportunity 2723 01:49:41,880 --> 01:49:38,800 to do this I realized when I analyzed it 2724 01:49:44,010 --> 01:49:41,890 that this was probably a technology that 2725 01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:44,020 would electrify the air in front of move 2726 01:49:47,220 --> 01:49:45,850 it along a magnetic field growing 2727 01:49:49,410 --> 01:49:47,230 stronger as it approached the craft 2728 01:49:53,460 --> 01:49:49,420 around it and close it back behind as a 2729 01:49:56,130 --> 01:49:53,470 spotter effect but my interest is in 2730 01:49:58,560 --> 01:49:56,140 this as an application technologically 2731 01:50:00,600 --> 01:49:58,570 if there evidence of that of course I 2732 01:50:03,350 --> 01:50:00,610 managed to raise through a research 2733 01:50:06,390 --> 01:50:03,360 corporation over 2 million dollars in 2734 01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:06,400 facilities and equipment to do hard data 2735 01:50:09,900 --> 01:50:07,570 monitoring and was used very 2736 01:50:12,570 --> 01:50:09,910 successfully that has been my objective 2737 01:50:14,910 --> 01:50:12,580 my objective is not a religious one I 2738 01:50:16,980 --> 01:50:14,920 have no drive to convince the public 2739 01:50:17,850 --> 01:50:16,990 that these things are real I don't know 2740 01:50:19,170 --> 01:50:17,860 where they come from 2741 01:50:22,170 --> 01:50:19,180 even as Chris doesn't know where they 2742 01:50:24,900 --> 01:50:22,180 come from all I can say is it's a 2743 01:50:26,670 --> 01:50:24,910 technology that in my opinion is beyond 2744 01:50:28,920 --> 01:50:26,680 anything I know about that could have 2745 01:50:31,230 --> 01:50:28,930 come from a terrestrial source I should 2746 01:50:35,010 --> 01:50:31,240 say to put this in context at my gut 2747 01:50:37,950 --> 01:50:35,020 impression based on what happened there 2748 01:50:40,410 --> 01:50:37,960 on the pier that day was that these 2749 01:50:42,650 --> 01:50:40,420 objects were each about 20 feet in 2750 01:50:45,810 --> 01:50:42,660 diameter and they were probably at about 2751 01:50:47,520 --> 01:50:45,820 5,000 feet altitude and by the way they 2752 01:50:49,710 --> 01:50:47,530 were moving completely contrary to the 2753 01:50:53,610 --> 01:50:49,720 wind came across and then we'd come 2754 01:50:57,729 --> 01:50:53,620 straight up now the surprise the last 2755 01:50:59,739 --> 01:50:57,739 object this object really blew my mind 2756 01:51:01,120 --> 01:50:59,749 I mean seeing disruptive flying the way 2757 01:51:03,819 --> 01:51:01,130 you never thought they were supposed to 2758 01:51:06,189 --> 01:51:03,829 fly was enough but the last object 2759 01:51:08,470 --> 01:51:06,199 looked totally different take an 2760 01:51:10,450 --> 01:51:08,480 old-fashioned hourglass remove the 2761 01:51:13,029 --> 01:51:10,460 wooden or plastic frame if it's a modern 2762 01:51:16,029 --> 01:51:13,039 one take the hourglass you see it's too 2763 01:51:18,399 --> 01:51:16,039 teardrop shape things point to point put 2764 01:51:20,279 --> 01:51:18,409 them in the sky and make them rotate I'm 2765 01:51:24,069 --> 01:51:20,289 gonna make an auditory sound that 2766 01:51:27,220 --> 01:51:24,079 equivalent of the rotation is that is 2767 01:51:30,790 --> 01:51:27,230 about how long it took the two units to 2768 01:51:32,979 --> 01:51:30,800 rotate 360 degrees is pretty fast but 2769 01:51:36,399 --> 01:51:32,989 this thing is coming across the sky and 2770 01:51:38,620 --> 01:51:36,409 it is it has plasma colors moving pretty 2771 01:51:40,569 --> 01:51:38,630 mother-of-pearl colors moving around the 2772 01:51:44,140 --> 01:51:40,579 surface of each half of this so-called 2773 01:51:45,700 --> 01:51:44,150 hourglass Center and the crazy thing 2774 01:51:47,529 --> 01:51:45,710 this sounds really crazy to me to say 2775 01:51:50,140 --> 01:51:47,539 this but my gut and it's purely nothing 2776 01:51:51,669 --> 01:51:50,150 scientific but my crazy gut feeling was 2777 01:51:54,640 --> 01:51:51,679 that this was the same thing I'd been 2778 01:51:57,220 --> 01:51:54,650 seeing and all the others but that we 2779 01:51:58,509 --> 01:51:57,230 were looking at some optical effect that 2780 01:51:59,830 --> 01:51:58,519 was starting it now that might be 2781 01:52:02,979 --> 01:51:59,840 totally wrong because that's subjective 2782 01:52:04,899 --> 01:52:02,989 but that's the way it is but I am quite 2783 01:52:07,540 --> 01:52:04,909 willing to show this to responsible 2784 01:52:10,720 --> 01:52:07,550 scientists you want to come here and see 2785 01:52:13,359 --> 01:52:10,730 this hey read it I you know okay hello 2786 01:52:14,739 --> 01:52:13,369 yeah ray there's someone that just 2787 01:52:16,689 --> 01:52:14,749 called in that wants to ask you a 2788 01:52:18,819 --> 01:52:16,699 question and that caller please identify 2789 01:52:27,779 --> 01:52:18,829 yourself but before you do mute your 2790 01:52:32,709 --> 01:52:27,789 computer please yeah okay sorry ray yeah 2791 01:52:34,239 --> 01:52:32,719 respond to Ray I just had a comment okay 2792 01:52:36,209 --> 01:52:34,249 we only have a few minutes left to the 2793 01:52:38,979 --> 01:52:36,219 show so go ahead with it if you would 2794 01:52:41,620 --> 01:52:38,989 well this sounds like the ramblings of a 2795 01:52:45,609 --> 01:52:41,630 paranoid schizophrenic that's all my 2796 01:52:48,910 --> 01:52:45,619 opinion that's all I had to say well 2797 01:52:51,250 --> 01:52:48,920 well thank you coming to you you ask 2798 01:52:53,500 --> 01:52:51,260 somebody who's seen it if this is the 2799 01:52:55,209 --> 01:52:53,510 ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic my 2800 01:52:57,669 --> 01:52:55,219 film was well suited for Nick and it 2801 01:53:00,339 --> 01:52:57,679 filmed it now I haven't seen the film 2802 01:53:01,930 --> 01:53:00,349 but just to many details I don't want to 2803 01:53:03,399 --> 01:53:01,940 put you down that's not my point 2804 01:53:04,899 --> 01:53:03,409 well that's what you're doing and 2805 01:53:07,450 --> 01:53:04,909 calling me a paranoid schizophrenic now 2806 01:53:10,120 --> 01:53:07,460 isn't it well let's be frank about it 2807 01:53:11,500 --> 01:53:10,130 you know it is now let me mention no 2808 01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:11,510 Nora there are 2809 01:53:15,729 --> 01:53:13,010 my level scientists who have seen this 2810 01:53:18,790 --> 01:53:15,739 and they're with me on this completely 2811 01:53:20,770 --> 01:53:18,800 one major physicist came here watched 2812 01:53:22,540 --> 01:53:20,780 for ten hours ten and a half hours in 2813 01:53:23,919 --> 01:53:22,550 fact and said hey I really appreciate 2814 01:53:25,509 --> 01:53:23,929 this wrote me a thousand-dollar check 2815 01:53:27,430 --> 01:53:25,519 and said the Workmen's worthless our 2816 01:53:29,919 --> 01:53:27,440 thanks for taking the time to show it to 2817 01:53:32,740 --> 01:53:29,929 me so I think that speaks something 2818 01:53:35,859 --> 01:53:32,750 about the value that that he assigned to 2819 01:53:37,629 --> 01:53:35,869 it okay so thanks for your copy well I'm 2820 01:53:41,470 --> 01:53:37,639 not gonna you know comment any further 2821 01:53:42,790 --> 01:53:41,480 that was just my impression okay your 2822 01:53:46,209 --> 01:53:42,800 address thank you for your call right 2823 01:53:48,819 --> 01:53:46,219 thanks all right but all right ray we so 2824 01:53:52,209 --> 01:53:48,829 we only have six minutes left or 2825 01:53:54,580 --> 01:53:52,219 socketed there about so rate yeah that 2826 01:53:56,560 --> 01:53:54,590 you know it comes up a lot of times the 2827 01:53:59,080 --> 01:53:56,570 number one thing that comes up when we 2828 01:54:00,580 --> 01:53:59,090 talk about it is why aren't these things 2829 01:54:02,890 --> 01:54:00,590 out to the public I know you're 2830 01:54:05,229 --> 01:54:02,900 addressing that this has to do more of a 2831 01:54:08,740 --> 01:54:05,239 scientific thing but is there any 2832 01:54:11,020 --> 01:54:08,750 further thing you can add to I know 2833 01:54:12,279 --> 01:54:11,030 you're cautious you're very cautious and 2834 01:54:15,339 --> 01:54:12,289 I could tell that when I was actually 2835 01:54:17,290 --> 01:54:15,349 visiting you how cautious you were even 2836 01:54:19,779 --> 01:54:17,300 showing me things but is there anything 2837 01:54:22,029 --> 01:54:19,789 else you want to add to the reason why 2838 01:54:25,180 --> 01:54:22,039 you're not you know getting these 2839 01:54:27,250 --> 01:54:25,190 digitized knows my objective is not that 2840 01:54:29,439 --> 01:54:27,260 and I don't have time to do that now I 2841 01:54:32,939 --> 01:54:29,449 am hoping to when I get clear of this 2842 01:54:35,799 --> 01:54:32,949 big big thing it's going to come out and 2843 01:54:38,200 --> 01:54:35,809 yes I know you don't have time yes 2844 01:54:41,109 --> 01:54:38,210 when I get through it that yes but my 2845 01:54:44,109 --> 01:54:41,119 hope is that that all of you will get to 2846 01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:44,119 see this we get to see this in time in 2847 01:54:49,419 --> 01:54:46,610 his full glory both as the original film 2848 01:54:51,250 --> 01:54:49,429 and then as image processing that shows 2849 01:54:53,020 --> 01:54:51,260 false-color contouring of what is 2850 01:54:55,930 --> 01:54:53,030 happening around the beam that would be 2851 01:54:57,939 --> 01:54:55,940 my hope it would be nice but first by 2852 01:54:59,680 --> 01:54:57,949 first goal was a technological but then 2853 01:55:02,799 --> 01:54:59,690 yes I'd love for people to see it 2854 01:55:05,229 --> 01:55:02,809 yes great well I I do appreciate that 2855 01:55:08,350 --> 01:55:05,239 and I I have been talking to you along 2856 01:55:11,560 --> 01:55:08,360 as you're working on this dinosaur paper 2857 01:55:13,180 --> 01:55:11,570 which is totally amazing and your name 2858 01:55:16,959 --> 01:55:13,190 is going to be almost a household name 2859 01:55:18,759 --> 01:55:16,969 to speak of you know more or less coming 2860 01:55:20,830 --> 01:55:18,769 up pretty soon here there's gonna be a 2861 01:55:22,600 --> 01:55:20,840 lot of public probably within the next 2862 01:55:25,209 --> 01:55:22,610 within the next three or two three 2863 01:55:26,890 --> 01:55:25,219 months so hopefully a quicker and 2864 01:55:29,259 --> 01:55:26,900 a major magazine they'll also be seeing 2865 01:55:30,219 --> 01:55:29,269 a picture of me holding a big footprint 2866 01:55:31,750 --> 01:55:30,229 of what most people know is that 2867 01:55:34,600 --> 01:55:31,760 pterodactyl is actually called a 2868 01:55:36,399 --> 01:55:34,610 pterosaur but I can't say anything more 2869 01:55:37,839 --> 01:55:36,409 about that but anyway yeah I'm deeply 2870 01:55:40,330 --> 01:55:37,849 involved in this but I promised these 2871 01:55:42,069 --> 01:55:40,340 people I will get back to them I've 2872 01:55:44,319 --> 01:55:42,079 satisfied the technological with 2873 01:55:46,810 --> 01:55:44,329 Mirabeau and now I hope that I can can 2874 01:55:48,069 --> 01:55:46,820 yaaaa please your curiosity and letting 2875 01:55:51,489 --> 01:55:48,079 you see it yeah 2876 01:55:52,839 --> 01:55:51,499 alive okay ray well thanks so much thank 2877 01:55:53,469 --> 01:55:52,849 you all right you take care of never 2878 01:55:56,709 --> 01:55:53,479 inviting me 2879 01:55:57,339 --> 01:55:56,719 alright you bet alright take care all 2880 01:55:59,529 --> 01:55:57,349 right 2881 01:56:03,370 --> 01:55:59,539 so Chris we only have a couple minutes 2882 01:56:06,250 --> 01:56:03,380 left here do you know it sure is your 2883 01:56:08,350 --> 01:56:06,260 website excess publishing is that your 2884 01:56:09,819 --> 01:56:08,360 website yeah it's still there I haven't 2885 01:56:11,169 --> 01:56:09,829 touched in a while I need to get back to 2886 01:56:13,629 --> 01:56:11,179 it actually I was figured about that 2887 01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:13,639 today I have a lot more things that I 2888 01:56:18,750 --> 01:56:15,650 want to put on it and actually maybe 2889 01:56:21,279 --> 01:56:18,760 with some of the work I've been doing 2890 01:56:23,500 --> 01:56:21,289 hopefully get some documentary stuff on 2891 01:56:24,969 --> 01:56:23,510 there to kind of expand it a little bit 2892 01:56:26,890 --> 01:56:24,979 I haven't actually touched it in a while 2893 01:56:29,259 --> 01:56:26,900 and of course moving recently has kept 2894 01:56:31,629 --> 01:56:29,269 me occupied for a long time but but yeah 2895 01:56:32,979 --> 01:56:31,639 that's my website the book is on there 2896 01:56:35,259 --> 01:56:32,989 there's a few things on there to see 2897 01:56:36,910 --> 01:56:35,269 primarily uh some bennewitz kind of 2898 01:56:39,279 --> 01:56:36,920 stuff as well but I'm hoping to get back 2899 01:56:43,560 --> 01:56:39,289 and update that thing pretty soon let me 2900 01:56:45,910 --> 01:56:43,570 make just one quick closing comment sure 2901 01:56:48,790 --> 01:56:45,920 the caller who comes in makes a comment 2902 01:56:53,140 --> 01:56:48,800 like that it's have no value it I mean 2903 01:56:54,939 --> 01:56:53,150 in ufology it's I mean well it didn't 2904 01:56:57,189 --> 01:56:54,949 address the subject anyway and all I 2905 01:57:01,299 --> 01:56:57,199 would have to say about Ray and his 2906 01:57:02,319 --> 01:57:01,309 films is I have been long enough that 2907 01:57:04,750 --> 01:57:02,329 even though ray and I have had our 2908 01:57:06,879 --> 01:57:04,760 differences at times I still stand 2909 01:57:09,580 --> 01:57:06,889 behind you know what he's got on film 2910 01:57:11,469 --> 01:57:09,590 I've seen the film he's got even more so 2911 01:57:14,350 --> 01:57:11,479 as I said it's not just what I'm saying 2912 01:57:16,899 --> 01:57:14,360 I just point at Mirabal this is a guy 2913 01:57:19,149 --> 01:57:16,909 who's an aerospace engineer got skills 2914 01:57:20,830 --> 01:57:19,159 way beyond what I've got he's seen those 2915 01:57:22,870 --> 01:57:20,840 he's recognized what's in the films as 2916 01:57:24,939 --> 01:57:22,880 well it proves that the films are there 2917 01:57:26,560 --> 01:57:24,949 proves that the films are valid I talked 2918 01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:26,570 to his daughter who was one of the first 2919 01:57:31,089 --> 01:57:29,090 ones to point him out to him I'm a 2920 01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:31,099 cautious sort of guy and don't typically 2921 01:57:36,279 --> 01:57:34,610 trust anything at face value especially 2922 01:57:38,319 --> 01:57:36,289 when it comes to you from UFOs per se 2923 01:57:38,770 --> 01:57:38,329 but I would agree with every I 2924 01:57:40,360 --> 01:57:38,780 understand 2925 01:57:42,430 --> 01:57:40,370 everybody's frustration over ray not 2926 01:57:43,810 --> 01:57:42,440 having seen them as I said before the 2927 01:57:47,130 --> 01:57:43,820 show I talked to you I said yeah it's a 2928 01:57:52,840 --> 01:57:47,140 20-year argument Thorin I have had but 2929 01:57:54,940 --> 01:57:52,850 but you know personalities aside the 2930 01:57:57,490 --> 01:57:54,950 film's I stand by what Ray has I stand 2931 01:57:59,830 --> 01:57:57,500 by Ray is a unique character of his own 2932 01:58:02,350 --> 01:57:59,840 right but I think it's totally unfair 2933 01:58:03,730 --> 01:58:02,360 and then call for to just come online 2934 01:58:06,010 --> 01:58:03,740 and make a comment like that about 2935 01:58:08,380 --> 01:58:06,020 anyone so I would just say everybody 2936 01:58:10,540 --> 01:58:08,390 wait to see the evidence yeah the 2937 01:58:12,700 --> 01:58:10,550 messenger is one thing the evidence is 2938 01:58:14,680 --> 01:58:12,710 something totally separate well that's a 2939 01:58:15,010 --> 01:58:14,690 good message to say goodnight on thanks 2940 01:58:18,190 --> 01:58:15,020 so much 2941 01:58:21,610 --> 01:58:18,200 okay thanks great night all right I'll 2942 01:58:24,370 --> 01:58:21,620 talk to you soon bye bye bye alright 2943 01:58:26,200 --> 01:58:24,380 everyone thanks so much for listening or 2944 01:58:28,720 --> 01:58:26,210 if you're supporting the show I want to 2945 01:58:31,560 --> 01:58:28,730 thank you for doing that as well next 2946 01:58:35,710 --> 01:58:31,570 week we'll be back with Caroline Corey 2947 01:58:38,440 --> 01:58:35,720 and should be an interesting show and so 2948 01:58:41,560 --> 01:58:38,450 again I want to thank you for either 2949 01:58:44,620 --> 01:58:41,570 supporting the show or watching live and 2950 01:58:46,140 --> 01:58:44,630 joining in the chatroom and talk to you